Sovereignty of God & No Free Will: Islam

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Hmm. Who was talking about Christianity in general? There have always been many Christianities, not just one "in general." Previously, you wrote:



I gather from your recent comments that you did not know the history of Christian fundamentalism in the U.S.

The issue of free will has always been debated in the religion of Islām. For instance:

Predestination and Free Will in Islam

Free Will

Predestination and Free Will in the View of Iqbal and Nursi

There is more free will in Islam, it has a wider scope, and the main differance is, God also has free will, and in conflict, submit to the will of God.

The Christian God is fixed, unchanging, and not connected to life. God does support governments. In conflict, find another verse that might support your view.

I have read the Koran, I found it wide and deep, and beyond the one who spoke it. He was a man, and did something greater than a man. It has also been preserved unchanged.

I read it in my mature years, and found it agreed with my own views.

Both Calvinism and Lutheranism (my religious tradition) reject the participation of human beings in their own salvation due to the fact that flawed human nature is incapable of playing a role. Rather, salvation is entirely in God's hands. It should be pointed out, Calvin and his followers believed in a double predestination - God chooses some to be saved, others to be damned - which was not held by Luther and his colleagues. As I understand it, many denominations today of the Calvinist tradition, such as the Presbyterians, reject double predestination.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Bill:

It depends on the particular Presbyterian ("Reformed") denomination. The Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) is a mainline Protestant denomination. They have largely discarded Calvinism. However, some other Presbyterian and Reformed denominations are still Calvinist.

Yes, I know there are Reformed Denominations that still practice older forms of Calvinistic doctrine.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Calvinism may be the most hated theology of the Reformation (at least by non-Calvinists).

It depends on the branch of Christianity. For instance, in open theism, even God does not know the future:

Open Theism

The fact that a lot of Muslims don't believe in free will (in practice, the doctrine is complicated) isn't something that endears Islam to me, but each to their own.

I'm so used to Muslims I went to school with posting stuff on Facebook like 'Inshallah I will finish medical school' and 'Inshallah my business will make money.' I feel like saying 'dude that stuff is down to your own effort, not some unproven cosmic entity's' but I hold my fire

I know they could get hit by a truck and therefore not finish their medical studies, but I don't put that down to God, being an atheist and all.

Actually what's happening in Christendom in general does matter because it shows a clear trend of decline. I am well aware of the late 19th century upswing of fundamentalism in the US, but it is in the context of an overall decline. Now, I've brought evidence forward to support my point that Christianity in the first world is in a massive decline and doesn't have the political or social power that it used to (my example of France under the Valois and Bourbon monarchies compared with today). I'm still waiting for your evidence to refute this.



The world Islam itself means "one who has submitted to god", that doesn't leave much room for discussion. The entire purpose of religion has always been to subvert individual will for the good of those in power and think that somehow Islam is going to be an exception to that is absurd.


[quote=Inventor]The Christian God is fixed, unchanging, and not connected to life. God does support governments. In conflict, find another verse that might support your view.
[/quote]

Except that's exactly what Muslims do as well. You're comparing two sides of the same coin and saying they are different, but they aren't except that one is gaining power and the other is losing it.

Which Christianity is in massive decline? In the U.S. the mainline denominations are floundering, but neopentecostal or charismatic churches are doing very well. "Christianity" is a religious category, not an organization.



However, Muslims have disagreed on the nature of submission. For instance, the common Islamic view that everyone is born a Muslim implies some predestination.



Bear in mind that I am neither a Christian nor a Muslim. So I don't have a dog in the fight. However, to say "one" is losing power and the "other" is gaining it is a massive reification.

The same old problem, what was written is not what the followers hear.

Both have both, and God willing and if the creek dont rise, is southern Islam.

Some see it as imposed limits, required rituals, and others see it as rough guidlines, something of a marked trail through life.

Most leaders want the people ignorant, fearful, and working. It is the way to raise money.

Now Nature does not have a will or a plan. Evolution lacks a goal, just those that live reproduce. Still, it is moving toward more complex life. That there is a flow to the Universe and things that happen outside of our limited view, is the concept of religion, which falls apart when sects, faiths, and rules come forth. The idea that we could understand what I used to lay on my blanket at night, on a mountain in New Mexico, and watch as more and more stars came into view, till the sky looked like clouds.

It is far more vast than our minds can deal with.

First look, light that is only a few hundred years old, but the spaces between fill in as you watch, then more and more, till the clouds of the universe are made of light billions of years old.

People who live in cities with street lights, have never looked upon my God. In some closed room they tell each other they know the truth of the universe.

Before cities and street lights there were some wise words spoken. And the sins of this generation are cast upon the next few. The Earth has not been becoming a better place. We are a curse upon all life, the water, air, and land. We have no where else to go, or anyone else to blame.

A Moral People would not destroy God's Creation. The house that was built to raise them, and keep them. Religion has earned a place for their followers in the lake of fire.

The stars will still be there, and in a few thousand years perhaps the land will recover, and continue along the path upon which it is directed. Someday, some will come along and help make things as the will of God directs.

Everything has been used, and the fall of man will be much quicker than the rise.

All of your wailing, tears, rending of garments, recited words, magic motions, will be for naught. The end times are here, and of your making.

When you were warned to repent, for the end was drawing near, you would not. Now, Behold! A pale Horse.

Your Free Will chose this.

In regard to the decline of mainline churches - that may not be entirely the case. One author (whose name I unfortunately can't remember) argued that the falling numbers of mainline denominations may have more to do with falling birthrates rather than an inability to hold members. Birth control is much more commonly used among mainline Protestants than among their evangelical counterparts. On top of that, the growth numbers given by evangelicals may not be what they seem - they count baptisms rather than actual new members, and many evangelicals get baptized multiple times.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Bill:

Some of it can be explained by birthrates, but not all of it. The growth of most religions has depended on some degree of moral authority and triumphalism ("be saved or be damned").

Mainline denominations are secularized (or "desacralized") which indicates less moral authority. Ecumenism and other interfaith movements have promoted tolerance. Unfortunately, tolerance can also result in apathy.

The church I attend is losing its members to complacency - the older generations expect the younger generations to think and act just like they did, and to have the same needs and interests (this applies also to the devout churchgoers' impression of the people in the surrounding neighborhood), and have grown complacent in their belief in the "Status Quo".

When the actual needs and interests of the younger generations ( or the locals) aren't met, they either go to another church or give up churchgoing altogether.

Every time another group of 18-to-24 year old leaves the church, the older generations go into a near panic trying to find out why they've left, but by then it's too late.

So every few years, we go through another "Evangelical Outreach" program that doesn't work because those who remain in the church are becoming progressively more out of touch - not only with their own children, but with the local neighborhood (the ethnicity is shifting more toward Mexican).

And they wonder why church attendance is dwindling.

Would not the fact that you are seeking such a belief be using your free will....to stop believing in free will?

I mean, this sounds a lot like you're looking for is something similar to Taoism/Daoism. To my understanding they don't believe in a supreme entity controlling the strings but more of a force that is the universe and you are but a drop in the river.