Roger Waters- It’s apartheid “clear and simple,”

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The reason Hamas is in power in the first place is because Israeli aggression made moderate leadership unelectable for the people of Gaza.

Also the Romans, Brits nor Ottomans never could claim any birthright to the land so there is a big difference there.

Not correct. According to FAS, the reason for the swing towards Hamas was due to Fatah being seen as corrupt (http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33269.pdf).

^ that was my impression as well. The Israelis were being relatively well-behaved (compared to other periods in the past) before Hamas got elected.

Ya. When you talk to Likud members some point out that the unilateral withdrawal from Gaza made it possible for Hamas to move in. They deduce different lessons from that fact than I would but its an interesting reality that unilateral concessions on the part of Israel do not necessarily lead to better outcomes.

Uh, if Fatah were not unelectable due to the lack of fire in their bellies before, they certainly now are in the wake of things like the Jenin massacre , the Gaza beach blast and Israel's last round of unprovoked aerial blitzes last year. In fact I'm pretty sure the previous two events happened under Fatah's watch. Then there is the sorest point of all, that damn wall.

Not sure I can take this sort of one-sided stuff seriously. The wall exists for a reason, most of the Palestinians who I have met seem to grasp that reason and grudgingly accept it. I really would like to visit Israel and the territories but unfortunately my specialisation is in the Asia-Pacific so won't be going on a research trip but I have spoken with quite a few Palestinians who see their own side as significantly to blame for the conflict. Dealing in absolutes is just never going to work when there are two peoples, one Jerusalem, one major source of water and lots of people with a great deal to lose. There are just some things that both sides need to accept, like the fact that Israel is not going anywhere and that the Palestinians deserve a place to live in peace.

My apologies if I am misreading your position.

I did. Almost 400 people were killed in 2002 and 2003 alone. Nobody has been killed by suicide bombers in Israel since 2008.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html
Even if you attribute the decline in attacks to the fence, it's on the level of hundreds and not thousands of lives. Which is not bad... if you don't mind that Palestinians are suffering and dying for that decrease as well.

Most of the Palestinians that are killed in the conflict are killed by the own side. The number of Palestinians killed by their own side (415 in 2007) is more than double that killed by Israel (118 in 2007). Palestinian hospitals are not nearly as good as those in Israel but Hamas has not responded to an offer from Israel to treat their injured for them. I can't say I am a huge fan of that source you are using LKL, it is disturbingly free from context.

http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/BE0 ... 4800500272

I am interesting in finding some better statistics.

Lets hear what a Jewish Member of the British Parliament has to say on the subject.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMGuYjt6CP8[/youtube]

"The state of Israel was born out of Jewish terrorism"

Thats why nothing but the stink of hypocrisy and selective memory drips from the lips of the Zionist mouthpieces and their conservative friends.

Whats interesting though, is that Kaufmann precisely backs up what i said regarding Hamas's election in 2006. It was because Fatah had been discredited.

Last edited by thomas81 on 15 Oct 2013, 6:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I wasn't too thrilled with the source, either, but the numbers on the chart at least jibed with what I've seen and heard elsewhere.

I watched the video and I can't say it was all that impressive. The sort of rhetoric that is built into the prose quoted above leads me to wonder, who exactly are you arguing against? Is there anyone credible who believes that Israel is blameless? As for Zionism, the idea that the Jews have a home in the Middle East, I can think of no reason not to accept the presence of Israel as a reality. If being a Zionist means supporting the continued existence of Israel, then by all means I am one myself. One of the most interesting things about the press within Israel is that it is highly self-critical, far more than almost anywhere else. They know their history, from the gangs to assassination of Bernadotte. Israelis also know what it is like to live under siege, to be attacked not just by people who want their land but who want to kill them just for being there. They don't forget Bernadotte but they also don't forget finding copies of Mein Kampf among the dead in the Yom Kippur War. They remember making unilateral concessions in Gaza and Lebanon that resulted, in their view, the rise of Hamas and Hezbollah. More recently they remember trading murderers like Samir Kuntar for captured solders and receiving only dead bodies and while the mourned they watch Samir receive a hero's welcome into Lebanon.

Both sides have a deep and abiding shared history of being oppressed and it really is in the interest of everyone to work out a deal. My skepticism remains, the case is to remain in the hands of people who see only one side of the conflict. There is a middle ground, one can be a friend to Israel and be critical of a security policy, like the settlements, that provide everything but. However, I just don't have much time for people who want to graft comparison upon comparison onto a situation which is only captured by nuance and interested thought.

As for the Kaufmann speech, I have run into chaps like him before. The source I gave you was from FAS, who actually asked the Palestinians what they thought, rather than presuming to speak for them, as Kaufmann does. Israel is not going anywhere and neither are the Palestinians both sides need to recognise that fact and move on from there, as does this conversation.

You shouldnt mix average palestinian citizens with leaders of palestinian militant groups, supported by foreign radical muslim countries. The average palestinian citizen doesnt receive any big aid, because of the embargo even standard building materials for houses need to be smuggled inside the country (done by palestinian militant group) and is sold for horrible prices to Palestinian citizens. So these militant group are in charge of that misery themselves, because everything that palestinians need, they only can buy to horrible prices.

The thing is, that palestinian and foreign leaders debating and doing contracts with Israel, means as well to openly accept israels official existence. Which different radical countries, still negate. Just like Obama debating with the Hawaiian King upon hawaiian rights, would involve the acceptance of Hawaii being an own kingdom. So the moment that official palestinian are doing a contract with Israel, setting in agreement country borders for palestina and israel, the radical groups loose their strongest argument against israels existence = the denial of it being an official country instead of an area, that is illegally under the weapon-acchieved control of foreign people. End of the 90ies, with the maturing PLO leader Arrafat there was an starting dialogue, that ended with Arrafat dying under "natural" causes. After his death, sadly on both sides radical group got favored more and more, so its sadly very unlikely, that there will be an peaceful end to this conflict soon.

Some of the worst from the Israeli side: http://www.salon.com/2013/10/13/for_isr ... f_horrors/
I'm sure that similar things could be found on the Palestinian side, but I would hope for better from a people who have already experienced their own shoah.

The Palestinians have institutionalised their propaganda efforts. Quite disgraceful really.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6257594.stm