The Myth of Confidence

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Schneekugel
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08 Nov 2013, 8:12 am

cubedemon6073 wrote:

Okay, so what do you do now? Are you still at McDonalds?

Had a tons of other jobs meanwhile I lost or needed to quit out of typical autistic reasons. (As example a job I did very fine, and my department chief was happy with me, but my direct coworkers said I was so boring and he had to less entertainment during day when working with me ...., another one I was unable to do out of an chaotic extrovert chief, making me crazy, ...) Then I had a job I did fine, where people didnt care for my treats, and then I got into my burnout, because I wanted to do the job so superdupergood...

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You're missing the whole point. This is where my father and I have clashed. The issues I have is not self-worth, self-esteem, emotion or attitude. The issue I have is I do not understand the underlying philosophy of what life is all about in America and knowing the ins and outs of how to effectively function in America whatsoever, why things are the way they are in America and why I must accept them?

Nope. Its simply about you. The place you live in simply sets some certain rules, but about where you want to go, is upon you.

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You're assuming that I have a certain basic level of knowledge when I do not. I have tons of details missing as to what certain things mean like the phrase "real world." You're focusing on something that is totally irrelevant to the issues at hand.

The knowledge what you want to do, you hardly will acchieve when listening to others. You have various possibilities. But other people cannot tell you, which one is the one that is truly fitting to you and that is the one you will like.

Because of me before taking my proudness only out of my job, I tried to go to the limit as much as possible. The better and more "honored" job, the better I can do... the better I thought. But it was simply nonsense. Its what others might make happy, but it didnt me make happy. I am happy if I get home and still have resources left to do private things and my interests I like. I am not interested anymore in a job on my limit. My recommendations on a job now, is that I can easily do it to come home with ressources, and that the payment is sufficient for basic living.

Just like all the wasted thoughts on impressing others. All the interests I had, that were not impressing others but might idiots get to think bad of me, I forbid myself to me. I allowed idiots, to ban things that make me happy, out of my life. Only so that those idiots, accept me. Acceptness of idiots dont make happy, because you will always have in mind, that they are idiots. My hobbies and the weird geeks sharing the same interests, really do make me happy. Society is simply full of idiots. I accepted that now. And by accepting it, I dont feel the need anymore to impress them.

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I am told to be true to myself but is one's true self going to be accepted in America and will his true self allow him to get a job. These are contradictory standards that are being given to me.

Simply take in mind, how much benefit or misadvantage you have. The grandmom of my partner has an huge influence on his whole family, and is a very external person. I see her three times a year. The huge problems she can cause is in no relation to not being me three times a year. ^^

While when it comes to stuff of daily life, being true becomes more impact, because not being you in your daily life, will make daily life hell. In general I wouldnt even think of "being accepted in America". You are surrounded by tons of different people, and absolutely noone can get accepted by everyone. Choose certain groups you want to be accepted in, that being in contact with, benefits you in the end, makes you happy. When it comes to my neighnors or work, I am definitely known as weirdo. I show effort around them to at least not completely shock them down, but I dont mind in general them knowing that I am a weirdo. Because I am a weirdo, and there is in general nothing bad about it.

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"Be yourself"
"Be true to yourself"
"Be positive"
"Set Goals for yourself"
"Be responsible"
"You have to earn everything you get."
"You have to start at the bottom."

and all of these hackneyed phrases are useless to me. I have heard everything from others before including my own father. It is trite and is utterly useless to me. I've been to therapy since I was four and it did not work. Without help and instruction from others on the ins and outs of society I am completely lost at sea.

Dont get yourself in the phrases. Phrases always mean what the person saying the phrase means. Someone telling you to set goals will mostly mean that in his eyes, you shall set goals that are important for him. But acchieving other people goals want help you if they are not your goals.

From my opinion, simply take your time...and then take in consideration your talents, your skills, your abilities and capabilites, as well things that you are incapable to do. Take in mind things that make you happy, and that make you unhappy. Not only when it comes about finally receiving something, but as well about the effort to obtain it. Would becoming a Star Wars actor make me happy? I´d like to say yes, because being a Star Wars actor was cool, but becoming one would suck, so its not good. ^^

Do not theoretically think about what might make you happy, because then its to easy to be influenced by what other tell you to be happy, but try to think back about situations in your life, when you really felt happy, anyway what society thought about it. Then maybe you might already have the first clues for possible goals in your life?

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08 Nov 2013, 8:49 am

Schneekugel wrote:

cubedemon6073 wrote:

Okay, so what do you do now? Are you still at McDonalds?

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Nope. Its simply about you. The place you live in simply sets some certain rules, but about where you want to go, is upon you.

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I am told to be true to myself but is one's true self going to be accepted in America and will his true self allow him to get a job. These are contradictory standards that are being given to me.

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I love your attitude..This is for the Win..my friend...

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08 Nov 2013, 8:49 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:

I think this is the kind of thing people need to wade through and come up with their own answers on.

Clearly a person who had difficulties - whether it's looks, whether it's disability, whether it's even just a bad run of luck or mistreatment/abuse in life that's set them on a low emotional rung with all other things given to them - has a much bigger task when it comes to trying to find confidence. The trouble with looking at it from a dating/love-life position is that it can be irrelevant. Confidence and self-assurance are best served as remedies for anxiety or depression. They're also somewhat good placebo for how people respond to you. It's good for job interviews and decent orbit of friends - that's about it's limits.

I get the impression for most people the opposite or same sex (depending on how you date) will treat you largely the same way and the barriers or lacktherof in that department aren't likely to change much when immediately draw or repel is built on such aethetic things as they are - this is where I think the 'confidence to get the guy or get the girl' thing is rubbish. What I do believe is true is that when you actually do catch someone's eye or they catch yours you have a better chance of a positive escalation with confidence than without. I've known plenty of guys living happier lives who weren't chased that much but got it right vs. guys who were chased all over the place but weren't adjusted right, partly because of it, and couldn't make things work because it fried their brains. In this sense when guys goad other guys about confidence it's usually the rather depressing days of the 20's and 30's when you can't go out with your friends without having half or most of them forcing it to be a mission with the obligation of taking someone home and in that sense it's really just a lot of self-induced suffering, add to that 'confidence' in the pick-up scene isn't necessarily a good thing nor does it necessarily lead to good outcomes in life.

Be your best self, strive to be your best self for your own happiness, and it's far better if you could give two ishts whether your confidence gets you things from people or not - IMHO the feeling of it (particularly if you've fought hard to earn it) is it's own reward. You can't lasso and control another person's depth or observational acuity so it's an utter waste and utterly voluntary unhappiness for one to whip themselves over raw forces of nature at that level.

And this rings true too...of course.my friend..2

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cubedemon6073
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08 Nov 2013, 9:53 am

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Okay, so what do you do now? Are you still at McDonalds? Had a tons of other jobs meanwhile I lost or needed to quit out of typical autistic reasons. (As example a job I did very fine, and my department chief was happy with me, but my direct coworkers said I was so boring and he had to less entertainment during day when working with me ...., another one I was unable to do out of an chaotic extrovert chief, making me crazy, ...) Then I had a job I did fine, where people didnt care for my treats, and then I got into my burnout, because I wanted to do the job so superdupergood...

Here is the thing. You knew the procedures and steps to obtain these jobs and you know what measures you took to obtain these jobs. You have certain basic levels of knowledge of the steps you too and what these steps are. The problem is I do not. It would be worth more to me if you told me the steps you took to obtain some of these jobs to the finest detail. If you and others did stuff like that then I can establish a general pattern.

You said you went to college for engineering is that correct. Here is the problem that I had. First, I graduated with a degree in Information Technology. I just figured out after years of trying to figure the whole job game out that a) it is a social game and b) if one can't obtain a job in their field they're supposed to try to work at McDonalds. I looked up the statistics for college graduates and obtaining their career and it is very enlightening.

http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt238505.html

Most people apparently go to work in other areas in which a degree may not even required. Most people do not achieve their dream. I never knew this. To most people, this is first nature to most people. Here is the thing, I tried to work at places like Wal-Mart, k-mart and I even tried to get a job at hotels being a bell-hop. I did not get a single word back from them and when I tried to call them back they gave me the canned speech that we would call you if we needed you and if any position came up. What were your methods and what were your steps to even get any job at all? All you're doing is giving me generalities, koans and abstract language that mean absolutely nothing to me.

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Nope. Its simply about you. The place you live in simply sets some certain rules, but about where you want to go, is upon you.

No, it isn't simply about me. We don't live in a vacuum. It is true that where I want to go is upon me is true but not strictly true. Where I want to go is constrained by the social standards, legal standards, laws of time and space, amount of resources one has and how much the resources are worth. You're giving me koans that do not hold up in the reality we're all constrained to.

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Because of me before taking my proudness only out of my job, I tried to go to the limit as much as possible. The better and more "honored" job, the better I can do... the better I thought. But it was simply nonsense. Its what others might make happy, but it didn't me make happy. I am happy if I get home and still have resources left to do private things and my interests I like. I am not interested anymore in a job on my limit. My recommendations on a job now, is that I can easily do it to come home with resources, and that the payment is sufficient for basic living.

Here is the issue that I have. I am on SSDI. Part of the issue is I think in extreme concrete terms as my social security psychologist said. My significant other and I are on the edge of a financial cliff. The only reason we're staying afloat is due to my family's generosity. We're dependent upon that. This isn't about self-worth, self-esteem, confidence and attitude. These are non-issues and non-entities. It isn't about being grateful for what one has. It isn't about emotions like you seem to want keep the topic on. We're on the edge of a financial disaster.

What if the government defaulted on its' debt? I would not have received my SSDI check. I am told to not worry about these things which means to deny them. These outside influences impact not just me but all of us. This whole belief in worrying about one's sphere of influence only is not the cure but the disease itself. What I and others are being told to do is to fiddle while Rome burns. All of our sphere of influences are intertwined with each other. The whole neighborhood is burning except for my house and the advice being given is to not worry about it because my house isn't burning and I have no control over the fires at the other houses. This is madness and pure insanity. The fires need to be put out.

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Just like all the wasted thoughts on impressing others. All the interests I had, that were not impressing others but might idiots get to think bad of me, I forbid myself to me. I allowed idiots, to ban things that make me happy, out of my life. Only so that those idiots, accept me. Acceptness of idiots dont make happy, because you will always have in mind, that they are idiots. My hobbies and the weird geeks sharing the same interests, really do make me happy. Society is simply full of idiots. I accepted that now. And by accepting it, I dont feel the need anymore to impress them.

I do accept that there are some people you don't have to impress. There are people you do have to impress and those are the ones who hold all of the keys and guard all of the doors. It is not true that one does not have to worry about impressing others. I can do all kinds of selling and advertising. It is up to the employer whether one is hired or not and whether the employee will remain or not. It is up to customers to decide if they want your product or not no matter how much advertising one does. It isn't totally up to me. Parts of one success depends upon certain external entities depending on what they are. Common Sense and Simple observations should tell people this but for whatever the reason they seem to deny the external locus of control part as if does not exist and it has no power.

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Huh? How do I do this?

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While when it comes to stuff of daily life, being true becomes more impact, because not being you in your daily life, will make daily life hell. In general I wouldnt even think of "being accepted in America". You are surrounded by tons of different people, and absolutely noone can get accepted by everyone. Choose certain groups you want to be accepted in, that being in contact with, benefits you in the end, makes you happy. When it comes to my neighnors or work, I am definitely known as weirdo. I show effort around them to at least not completely shock them down, but I dont mind in general them knowing that I am a weirdo. Because I am a weirdo, and there is in general nothing bad about it.

It is true that I don't need to be accepted by everyone and I am not looking for that. What I am looking for is instruction that is specific and concrete and acceptance by those who do count. My family is one of them and I do have acceptance by them and I appreciate that.

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I will try to explain this in engineering terms. Let's say you're trying to design a bridge. You have certain properties you have to take into account when designing the bridge like structural support, types of materials (melting and freezing points), how much weight the bridge can support at different configurations, etc. Here is the problem that I have with setting goals. I do not know the parameters and how to obtain the parameters of the given system we call American society. I do not know how to set a goal or build a bridge without knowing what materials available and knowing the properties to these materials. Do you understand what I trying to get at here?

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From my opinion, simply take your time...and then take in consideration your talents, your skills, your abilities and capabilites, as well things that you are incapable to do. Take in mind things that make you happy, and that make you unhappy. Not only when it comes about finally receiving something, but as well about the effort to obtain it. Would becoming a Star Wars actor make me happy? I´d like to say yes, because being a Star Wars actor was cool, but becoming one would suck, so its not good. ^^

Again, how?

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Do not theoretically think about what might make you happy, because then its to easy to be influenced by what other tell you to be happy, but try to think back about situations in your life, when you really felt happy, anyway what society thought about it. Then maybe you might already have the first clues for possible goals in your life?

All of us are influenced by the societies we grew up and were raised in. How does one not be influenced?

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08 Nov 2013, 10:12 am

cubedemon6073 wrote:

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One of the reasons I make the claim that emotions are controllable is that we can eliminate emotional reactions through inoculation. One of the projects I worked on a few years ago was related to stress inoculation of soldiers in combat. With training, soldiers easily overcome most of the emotional stress of combat, to the point where they don't even feel the emotions that untrained soldiers experience.

Will you please elaborate more?

Another example is public speaking. The first time you go in front of a group of people, it's terrifying. As you gain experience, you gradually overcome this fear entirely. That's essentially what stress inoculation is about.

It's really nothing more than "practice makes perfect". The more prepared you are for catastrophe, the less emotional reaction you have to it.

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I get up every morning at 5:30am, exercise for an hour or so, then shower and get fully dressed (in business casual unless I'm doing something that requires otherwise). I do this whether or not I'm working or even seeing other people on a given day. It's something I do for me -- I feel better about myself when I'm exercised, clean and fully dressed.

What time do you go to bed? I do agree this is in one's circle of influence.

Anywhere between 9:30pm and 11:00pm. If I stay up past that, I feel horrible the next day. I really lost my ability to operate on less sleep when I passed 40.

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What if what you have is not enough? I can guess an answer. Because of the very belief that anyone can pull themselves by their own bootstraps those who truthfully need guidance and assistance more than likely will not receive it. In the American mindset, you're on your own and those who fail in America, it is their fault no matter what the external circumstances are whether the person's perceptions are. Is this correct, yes or no? Is this a sound and valid conclusion I can make about American society?

I can't agree on that. This idea is the result of political propaganda.

All the evidence I've seen has shown a lot of compassion on the part of the American people. The "rugged individualism" mindset doesn't necessarily mean that we lack compassion or a willingness to help those that need it.

If your conclusion was correct, we wouldn't have the social welfare programs that currently exist. Where the conflict arises for us is that our country was founded on the principle of individual liberty (and necessarily, a free market). The idea of public (government-run) social welfare is in direct conflict with this core value. Again, it's not a case of the people lacking compassion -- it's an argument about whether social welfare should be legislated.

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I work under the assumption that I have control over everything in my life, whether or not it's true. This helps me to avoid giving other people power over me and ensures that I take responsibility for my actions. This is not to say that I assume responsibility for other peoples problems; just that my default position is that my circumstances are my responsibility.

This means what you're telling me is you deny some truths? Am I correct? If I am correct then one of the secrets of functioning in American society is to live under delusion and by denying certain aspects of reality. Is this correct?

I think you're taking this a bit far. It's not a matter of denying reality. It's a matter of critical thinking. If I assume that I have control, it means I have to consider the possible actions I can take to change my circumstances. If I assume that other people have control, it takes my actions out of consideration.

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You have affirmed that we don't live in a vacuum which means we live in the presence of others and are subject to these other's social rules and laws, am I correct?

Yes.

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Part of these social rules is the belief in pulling yourself by your bootstraps am I correct?

I would rephrase this to say that part of our culture is that people have individual responsibility. Yes, you should pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and keep going as long as you possibly can. More recently, however, our culture has been teaching people to be weak and dependent.

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You agree that we have a circle of influence that is constrained and influenced other people's circle of influences which would be my circle of concern?

It's been a really long time since I read Stephen Covey's book, but if I recall, this is the correct definition of those terms.

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Based upon this how is it possible to deny the power the collective has over the individual? How can you possibly deny this? What you're telling me is that the secret to success in America is delusion and denial am I correct? This tells me that Americans will deny your reality if it does not match with theirs and Winston Wu is correct when he wrote this. Am I correct?

http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/Attitude_Fanatics.htm

Interesting article.

I'm not a big fan of those people either, and it's not an attitude I'm suggesting. The "secret" to financial success is spending less than you earn. The "secret" to social success is learning social etiquette. I don't think there's anything delusional about that.

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This Americans use a form of defense mechanism called denial. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_me ... thological

Concluding further, this means American society is dysfunctional and pathological. Am I correct?

I think it operates the way any social environment operates, so I wouldn't agree with using either of those terms to describe it. It would be hard to convince me that those terms could be used to describe the social interactions in a sample size of over 300 million.

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This means Barbara Ehrenreich is correct as well in what she wrote in her book called Bright-Sided?

http://www.barbaraehrenreich.com/

I haven't read her book, so I'm not qualified to evaluate it as a reference.

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Finally, what you're telling me is my issue is I do not deny the reality of things. Am I correct?

If I am incorrect in anything that I have implied, stated or asked then will you please show me where my reasoning is faulty?

I think your reasoning would be fine if I had pushed "The Secret" agenda. But I didn't. I explained that I take a default position that I'm in control of my circumstances and responsible for them. There's nothing delusional about this. It's just a personal responsibility ethic.

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08 Nov 2013, 11:37 am

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What if one is practicing that is based upon faulty techniques? If one is to do public speaking doesn't one have to learn proper techniques first? How does practice make perfect if one does not have the proper techniques and he is expected to haphazardly go up there? Perfect means complete and not needing anything else. Am I correct? How can all entities truthfully be perfect and how is it possible to practice his way to perfection? How does one know if it is perfect or not? What criteria is used?

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Anywhere between 9:30pm and 11:00pm. If I stay up past that, I feel horrible the next day. I really lost my ability to operate on less sleep when I passed 40.[/quote]

It is because the human body normally needs about 7-9 hours of sleep per day and some of that has to be REM sleep.

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All the evidence I've seen has shown a lot of compassion on the part of the American people. The "rugged individualism" mindset doesn't necessarily mean that we lack compassion or a willingness to help those that need it.

If your conclusion was correct, we wouldn't have the social welfare programs that currently exist. Where the conflict arises for us is that our country was founded on the principle of individual liberty (and necessarily, a free market). The idea of public (government-run) social welfare is in direct conflict with this core value. Again, it's not a case of the people lacking compassion -- it's an argument about whether social welfare should be legislated.

Right now, I am on SSDI. Here is the thing. I don't want welfare or be given fish. Here is the quote "Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime."

There is some truth to this but I have some objections. One has to be in good mental and physical condition to be taught how to fish. What I desire for me is this.

a. nursed back to health so I can learn
b. be taught.
c. know how to fish.

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I am using critical thinking myself as well. One's actions and circumstances are limited to what external constraints allow. There are laws of time and space, legal laws and social standards. One can perform the song and dance. One can be as fake and genuine as he wants. At the end of the day the employer(s) have control over whether one is hired or not.

It is the same thing with business. In the end it is up to the customer to buy your products no matter how much advertising one does and no matter how much selling he does.

It is true that one has control over his actions but one does not have control over what others do and other external entities outside of his circle of influence.

One can only within the knowledge he knows and understands and what he knows he has. Your circle of influence may not be enough.

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I would rephrase this to say that part of our culture is that people have individual responsibility. Yes, you should pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and keep going as long as you possibly can.

How?

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More recently, however, our culture has been teaching people to be weak and dependent.

How do you derive this as so?

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The "secret" to financial success is spending less than you earn. The "secret" to social success is learning social etiquette.

The financial part I agree.

How? What does it mean to be true to yourself? If one is supposed to learn social etiquette then why tell someone to be true to themselves when it is not so?

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I don't think there's anything delusional about that.

No, there isn't. You're telling the truth on this. These are my observations as well. One is supposed to conform to certain social standards which means "Be Yourself" is horrible advice.

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How does the social environment operate?

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I explained that I take a default position that I'm in control of my circumstances and responsible for them. There's nothing delusional about this.

It's just a personal responsibility ethic.

You stated you take the default position that you believe you're in control of your circumstances whether it is actually true or not. You deny a certain aspect of reality itself. Let's look at these defense mechanisms.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_me ... thological

You are using a form of denial and distortion. You completely reject what the facts actually are but you reshape and you distort external reality to meet your needs. You accept certain facts that benefit you and deny and distort facts that is detrimental to you. It is a form of double-think.

Most people seem to do this and it seems to work for everyone. It is so dysfunctional but yet is stable at least for now because this pathological way is a inherent part of the culture. This is so fascinating as to what the human mind can and will do including those on the spectrum and not on the spectrum. You have given me some insight into the human psyche and I appreciate it. I am just beyond belief about this.

Here is the thing. Employers hire by personality now. http://www.linkedin.com/today/post/arti ... ersonality

It isn't about social skills or social etiquette. There is the saying personality is forever. One can't be something he is not. You're asking people to take personal responsibility when the truth is the writing is on the wall.

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08 Nov 2013, 4:04 pm

cubedemon6073 wrote:

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The "practice makes perfect" cliché means that repetition is the key to improvement. It's not really used to indicate that perfection is achievable.

Better techniques are the result of experience. If you had enough time, you would eventually learn better techniques. If you have no technique to start with, you'll still learn -- just at a slower pace than if someone mentors you (and teaches you techniques).

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Is this the path you're currently on? Do you have a plan to get there?

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At the end of the day the employer(s) have control over whether one is hired or not.

It is the same thing with business. In the end it is up to the customer to buy your products no matter how much advertising one does and no matter how much selling he does.

Both parties have to agree in order to complete a transaction. The employer is not in complete control. You are also in control. If both of you want to do business together, then you'll work together. If either of you prefers not to do business together, then there is no business transaction.

The employer is buying your product/service (you). You are selling. If either of you choose not to participate, there is no exchange.

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I would rephrase this to say that part of our culture is that people have individual responsibility. Yes, you should pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and keep going as long as you possibly can.

How?

I don't understand the question. That phrasing basically just says "keep trying".

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More recently, however, our culture has been teaching people to be weak and dependent.

How do you derive this as so?

This is evident from the trend of the last several decades in participation in income taxes, social welfare spending, and social welfare participation.

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The "secret" to financial success is spending less than you earn. The "secret" to social success is learning social etiquette.

The financial part I agree.

How? What does it mean to be true to yourself? If one is supposed to learn social etiquette then why tell someone to be true to themselves when it is not so?

I don't tell people to be "true to themselves". It's a projection of the advisor's goals onto the advisee. If you can better achieve your goals by being false to yourself, go for it.

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One is supposed to conform to certain social standards which means "Be Yourself" is horrible advice.

I agree.

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How does the social environment operate?

Can you ask your question in a less open-ended way?

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There is a pragmatic approach to all of this: What do you want out of life?

Personally, I want to both enjoy life and provide for my family. I enjoy the sense of accomplishment in creating things. I enjoy pushing myself to my mental and physical limits. I enjoy new experiences. Providing for my family means that I have to produce in order to generate wealth. Since the world is really an aristocracy no matter what fake political systems we create, it means that I need to climb the social ladder so that my family survives in the long term. I prefer to be the "upstairs" people rather than the "downstairs" people.

Because I recognize what I want out of life, it's very easy to set a path to achieve these goals. Those steps may not be easy, but all I have to do is avoid being lazy and I'll move in the right direction.

My approach took me from being broke and barely functional out of high school to having a successful marriage, successful social life, and a successful career. It took a long time, a lot of introspection, and a lot of effort, but I accomplished what 25 years ago I thought was impossible.

In my opinion, accepting any crap writing on the wall is an excuse not to succeed in pursuing your goals. I'm not going to assume failure. I'll do whatever it takes to succeed -- the worse that can happen is that I'll have a lot of fun trying and some great stories to tell my grandchildren.

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08 Nov 2013, 4:53 pm

I basically agree with Janissy regarding the original post by YoucancallmeAl. The author would do well to learn more about this topic before trying to teach it. He has far too much confidence in his understanding. (Ironic, isn't it? )

One of his misunderstandings is the meaning of "be confident". Of course you cannot just magically become more confident - he's right in that. What people really mean by this is "act confident". Yes, they should say what they mean, but most people aren't aspies. It makes more sense when you consider that, from an external point of view, it's the same thing - others don't see how confident you actually are, only how confident you act.

Janissy wrote:

cubedemon wrote:

Fake it until you make it really means practice until you make it. I would never have known this until you told me. Why don't people say the word practice instead of fake?

Because then it wouldn't rhyme. :lol:

I have to disagree on that one. It's a funny reason, but it's not the real reason.

"Practicing" and "faking" are different. Faking is a form of practising, but it also involves deceiving others. For instance, walking up to a stranger and initiating a conversation would be an example of practising confidence, but saying or implying that you know you're attractive when in fact you're unsure of it would be an example of faking confidence. The phrase "fake it till you make it" really does refer to "faking". The idea is that pretending to be successful in some respect (in which you're not successful yet) would help you to actually become successful.

It works as a (fake) "social proof". For example, a new business that has no customers yet may find it difficult to sell to the first customer. If the customer falsely believes others have already bought from that business they're more likely to buy themselves. When enough customers have done this the business then has actual customers - they "made it" by "faking it". This kind of thing is very common in business. They usually try to mislead, rather than outright lie.

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cubedemon6073
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08 Nov 2013, 7:36 pm

Quote:

As I am reading and listening to more and more what people say I am putting together a narrative and I don't like what I see before me.

Quote:

Is this the path you're currently on? Do you have a plan to get there?

I would love to know how to come up with one. I am beginning to understand America's narrative but I still do not understand the intricacies.

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This is the theory. In practice, I have a choice between kodos and kang.

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The employer is buying your product/service (you). You are selling. If either of you choose not to participate, there is no exchange.

Speaking of products some products are required for to function in America today.

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I don't understand the question. That phrasing basically just says "keep trying".

Try what? How do I try?

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This is evident from the trend of the last several decades in participation in income taxes, social welfare spending, and social welfare participation.

Our cultural narrative is the very problem.

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The "secret" to financial success is spending less than you earn. The "secret" to social success is learning social etiquette.

The financial part I agree.

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I don't tell people to be "true to themselves". It's a projection of the advisor's goals onto the advisee. If you can better achieve your goals by being false to yourself, go for it.

and the plot thickens. At least you admit what is true. So, why do people state something which is false?

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How does the social environment operate?

Can you ask your question in a less open-ended way?

Fair enough, I will need to think of more specifics.

*addendum*

Okay, let's try this scenario. Pretend I was shipwrecked as a baby with various members of a cruise. I am taught English, academic stuff and survival stuff. I only know the theory America and what has been told to me. Eventually, some ship spots us and brings us back to America. Eventually, I have to get a job and I know nothing of what's going on, the intricacies and the ins and outs. Pretend I know absolutely nothing. I don't know what a job is, a career is and what a career goal is. I have little to no fundamental understanding of these concepts. Can you provide what one is supposed to do in intricate detail? How exactly does one get a job? What are the steps and measures that you took?

All of the advice assumes that I understand certain basic concepts and I know how to interpret them by reading myself when I do not.

Can you read this right here and show me where my thinking is faulty? http://whyifailedinamerica.wordpress.co ... mployment/

I am missing details that can complete the picture for me. No one will explain what these details are. To them it is common sense.

http://whyifailedinamerica.wordpress.co ... 07/14/how/

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There is a pragmatic approach to all of this: What do you want out of life?

To leave America with my wife, my family and her family and this whole hustling culture behind. What I want is genuineness. I want something that is true and real. I want a community in which we all pull together and not try to hustle each other and tear each other apart. I want to be able to reflect and think. I want to just lay there with my wife under the stars and contemplate. I want enriching experiences and I want to enrich my soul. I want a balance of rationality with spirituality. I want to pursue truth and meaning. What is the meaning of life?

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Personally, I want to both enjoy life and provide for my family. I enjoy the sense of accomplishment in creating things. I enjoy pushing myself to my mental and physical limits. I enjoy new experiences. Providing for my family means that I have to produce in order to generate wealth. Since the world is really an aristocracy no matter what fake political systems we create, it means that I need to climb the social ladder so that my family survives in the long term. I prefer to be the "upstairs" people rather than the "downstairs" people.

I want to create things as well that have meaning. The American culture does not offer what I need and what my wife needs. It is to sensate in America. I want to live more in an integral culture. http://satyagraha.wordpress.com/2010/08 ... modernity/

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Because I recognize what I want out of life, it's very easy to set a path to achieve these goals. Those steps may not be easy, but all I have to do is avoid being lazy and I'll move in the right direction.

If one doesn't know the parameters of the given system then it is not easy almost impossible.

What if one don't know the steps and tries to research what the steps are but is not able to understand what he reads that well or the information does not tell him the info he is looking for? Let's say one tries to ask others and they simply give you the one liners like "Be yourself."

Last edited by cubedemon6073 on 09 Nov 2013, 7:55 am, edited 3 times in total.

ruveyn
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08 Nov 2013, 9:06 pm

Oh Yes, I'm the Great Pretender,

Pretending whenever I can

My need is such..... I Pretend too much

Pretending whenever I can, Pretending whenever I can.....

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12 Nov 2013, 10:31 am

cubedemon6073 wrote:

As I am reading and listening to more and more what people say I am putting together a narrative and I don't like what I see before me.

What we like isn't relevant.

Quote:

Is this the path you're currently on? Do you have a plan to get there?

I would love to know how to come up with one. I am beginning to understand America's narrative but I still do not understand the intricacies.

1. Decide what you want.
2. Research the requirements for achieving what you want.
3. Research the tasks involved in accomplishing each of those requirements.
4. Write it all down and look at it every day.

Quote:

This is the theory. In practice, I have a choice between kodos and kang.

I don't know your situation, but we typically set our own limits.

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The employer is buying your product/service (you). You are selling. If either of you choose not to participate, there is no exchange.

Speaking of products some products are required for to function in America today.

Like what? The only products I can think of that are required to function in America (or anywhere else) are food and water.

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I don't understand the question. That phrasing basically just says "keep trying".

Try what? How do I try?

Expend effort toward achieving a goal. Some of these questions can be answered with a dictionary.

Quote:

I don't tell people to be "true to themselves". It's a projection of the advisor's goals onto the advisee. If you can better achieve your goals by being false to yourself, go for it.

and the plot thickens. At least you admit what is true. So, why do people state something which is false?

People are illogical and irrational.

Quote:

Okay, let's try this scenario. Pretend I was shipwrecked as a baby with various members of a cruise. I am taught English, academic stuff and survival stuff. I only know the theory America and what has been told to me. Eventually, some ship spots us and brings us back to America. Eventually, I have to get a job and I know nothing of what's going on, the intricacies and the ins and outs. Pretend I know absolutely nothing. I don't know what a job is, a career is and what a career goal is. I have little to no fundamental understanding of these concepts. Can you provide what one is supposed to do in intricate detail? How exactly does one get a job? What are the steps and measures that you took?

All of the advice assumes that I understand certain basic concepts and I know how to interpret them by reading myself when I do not.

The only concept necessary is that in order to survive, you have to produce. This is the way of the universe. We perform labor and/or innovate in exchange for products and services. In solitude, you exchange labor for the product of the earth. In society, you exchange labor for the products of other people.

People who haven't been coddled know this through experience.

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Can you read this right here and show me where my thinking is faulty? http://whyifailedinamerica.wordpress.co ... mployment/

You're focused on failing, not succeeding. Work toward success rather than failure and you might realize a better outcome.

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In addition, I grew up believing that all one had to do was get a degree and one could just get a job just like that.

I grew up with this myth. The fact is, we are not all the same. There are many paths to success, not just one cookie-cutter method. You have to discover what works for you, not what society dictates. And you'll struggle with society's rules. It's just life.

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I am missing details that can complete the picture for me. No one will explain what these details are. To them it is common sense.

http://whyifailedinamerica.wordpress.co ... 07/14/how/

I think you need to step back and consider the "why?" before you worry about the "how?"

Quote:

There is a pragmatic approach to all of this: What do you want out of life?

To leave America with my wife, my family and her family and this whole hustling culture behind. What I want is genuineness. I want something that is true and real. I want a community in which we all pull together and not try to hustle each other and tear each other apart.[/quote]
You're fantasizing about the unknown. There isn't any more "truth" or "reality" anywhere else in the world either.

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I want to be able to reflect and think. I want to just lay there with my wife under the stars and contemplate. I want enriching experiences and I want to enrich my soul. I want a balance of rationality with spirituality. I want to pursue truth and meaning. What is the meaning of life?

I can't help you with this. I don't care about the meaning of life.

Quote:

I want to create things as well that have meaning. The American culture does not offer what I need and what my wife needs. It is to sensate in America. I want to live more in an integral culture.

http://satyagraha.wordpress.com/2010/08 ... modernity/

That article is nothing but mental masturbation to me. The patterns on his chart are in the hundreds of years. It's like trying to plan your life around the next step in human evolution.

You are complaining of the lack of details in those "one-liners" while at the same time concerning yourself with vague transitional cultures. Your problem is you, not the culture you're in. You are trying to escape and making excuses to justify it.

Quote:

You don't have to know everything. You learn by making mistakes.

cubedemon6073
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12 Nov 2013, 11:57 am

Quote:

What we like isn't relevant.

Why is it not relevant?

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In a given system, how does an entity do what it wants?

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I don't know your situation, but we typically set our own limits.

Can you clarify further? How does this always hold up in all iterations in all given systems?

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The employer is buying your product/service (you). You are selling. If either of you choose not to participate, there is no exchange.

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Like what? The only products I can think of that are required to function in America (or anywhere else) are food and water.

One has to be able to have a phone to put down as a phone number if one wants to obtain a job.

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Expend effort toward achieving a goal. Some of these questions can be answered with a dictionary.

Can you clarify further? The dictionaries only give definitions. They give no context. I have no context to what you're saying as to how it relates to America.

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People are illogical and irrational.

Yes, they are.

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Can you clarify further with specifics and detailed information? I understand the theory but I do not get the specifics. How does one produce? How do you know how the universe works?

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People who haven't been coddled know this through experience.

Can you please clarify?

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You're focused on failing, not succeeding. Work toward success rather than failure and you might realize a better outcome.

How? Can you clarify further?

I grew up with this myth. The fact is, we are not all the same. There are many paths to success, not just one cookie-cutter method. You have to discover what works for you, not what society dictates. And you'll struggle with society's rules. It's just life.

Can you clarify further please? You're giving me the same Americanisms that tell me nothing.

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I think you need to step back and consider the "why?" before you worry about the "how?"

meaning?

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There is a pragmatic approach to all of this: What do you want out of life?

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You're fantasizing about the unknown. There isn't any more "truth" or "reality" anywhere else in the world either.

So, are you a relativist? What do you mean by this?

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I can't help you with this. I don't care about the meaning of life.

If you do not care about its meaning and don't know its meaning then how claim the things you claim as true?

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That article is nothing but mental masturbation to me. The patterns on his chart are in the hundreds of years. It's like trying to plan your life around the next step in human evolution.

What is the correct way to plan and live one's life?

Quote:

You are complaining of the lack of details in those "one-liners" while at the same time concerning yourself with vague transitional cultures. Your problem is you, not the culture you're in. You are trying to escape and making excuses to justify it.

Can you clarify as to how to determine if the issue is the individual or the culture? Do you have a rubric that one goes by to determine if there is something wrong with the individual, the culture or if it is something else? Who or what is the final determiner and how do we determine as individuals if the individual is fallacious or the culture the individual he lives in is fallacious? How do you logically come to believe in this extreme internal locus of control if entities exist outside of the individual and their control has influence over the individual's control? You're giving clichéd Americanisms that lack any substance and I have heard them before? You're making a claim that the individual is always in control of his circumstances no matter what external entities exist Can you prove this claim for all iterations all across the universe and existence?

Quote:

You don't have to know everything. You learn by making mistakes.

Can you clarify further?

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12 Nov 2013, 12:21 pm

No, I can't clarify further.

AngelRho
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12 Nov 2013, 1:21 pm

The confidence thing isn't really all that much a myth.

Sure, simply believing you can do something is no guarantee that you CAN. But believing wholeheartedly in something and going for it does mean that the "believer" is willing to take risks that may not, but may, result in success. I think of Thomas Edison, as an example. He had a lot more failures than successes. It's just that he worked hard enough and fast enough that the relatively few successes he had in proportion to failures were enough to make him a household name.

As a musician, I know all too well what it's like to live in a fame-or-famine occupation. And, you know? I'm OK with that. Rather than counting successes in terms of how many thousands of dollars I make, I count my successes in how many gigs, especially repeat gigs, that I play. I write music and prefer to perform my own arrangements and original compositions, but the prospect of someone making a lot of money in this market is pretty bleak. I still don't care. I keep trying, because I'm a musician and that's what I do. I just got booked for a gig playing a lil' ol' lady luncheon at a Presbyterian church where I'll be playing Christmas standards on piano, clarinet, and handbells. I'll be accompanying myself with my own, self-recorded tracks. And while I'm at it, I'll be promoting the album I'm planning to release next year about this time. I start working on it this weekend.

The thing is, I'm KNOW I'm perfectly capable of pulling this off and making REAL money doing it. The problem? It's been 10 years now since I earned my master's degree in music composition. I've suffered from a lack of confidence because I'm just not that knowledgeable of the business side of music. And I'm still not. I've been too busy trying to break into more academic areas of music, which I found you cannot do without a doctorate degree and university support. It took me 10 years to finally decide that the BEST thing I should be doing musically is forget about some ethereal, ideological notions of artistic integrity and just start cranking out some things that I as well as an average audience would enjoy--and maybe even make a little money while I'm at it. It's more important that I feed my family than to seek approval of some ivory tower establishment.

I think that FEAR drives repression of personal confidence and keeps people from winning. I think there are two kinds of fear: 1) Fear of failure. It's easier to sit on the couch and do nothing all day than it is to take a chance and actually win. 2) Fear of success. OK, I win...NOW WHAT?

I've been pushing my kids to learn piano, and my oldest son played his very first keyboard festival, an adjudicated event. He's only 6, so ratings aren't that big a deal to him. They ARE a big deal to me, however. So an "Excellent" rating just won't do. I'm proud of him for an "Excellent" (II) rating, don't get me wrong. But I want "Superior" (I) for him. So we'll keep working until that happens.

But then what? What do you do after you win a "Superior" rating? You do it AGAIN. And AGAIN. And AGAIN. You win, and then you keep on winning. You get a taste of what it's like to win, and you never want to stop.

People can become paralyzed by fear because they are freaked out by the prospect of actually succeeding. It takes a lot of work to stay at the top of your game. And there will always be a bunch of losers who won't even try standing around to criticize you. If you're afraid of hard work and inevitable minor goof-ups upon succeeding at something, you probably won't even try. Winning freaks you out, so you give up before you even start. It's easier to just stand by and hate on those who DO try.

I know my own capabilities. I have a plan to make it in the music biz at the LOCAL (small-time) level. I don't need to be picked up by a big label or big publisher--but I won't turn it down if I get offers! Succeed or fail, I'm just going to do what I do.

Success is success regardless of quantity. I'll take small wins over nothing at all any day.

Confident people understand that and act accordingly. That's why they succeed at so much. They take a chance.

My wife until recently was the head teller at a local bank. Her confidence was shaky at first, but her superiors believed she could handle the job--so we thought, anyway. So over the course of time, things took an awful turn and she started getting verbal and written reprimands, mostly for things beyond her control, and a lot of things she wasn't even authorized to deal with. I'm not sure what these guys were thinking, but there has been MASSIVE turnaround in employees over the last 2 years at that branch. All I can think of is that their management and operations are just certifiably crazy. All my wife knows is that she's had enough of being head teller and that she's uncertain whether she even still knows how to count/do basic math.

Well, I know my wife, and I know she's a LOT smarter than that. She took a demotion and a significant pay cut, and I told her to start looking for a different job.

Two weeks later (after resigning the position) she was offered a job as head teller at a different bank. She was scared to death to interview for it, and I pushed her anyway. She got the job and a HUGE pay raise, at least compared to her previous job.

And it's a great job. Two weeks ago she got robbed. People ask all the time how she's holding up. She says that a typical day at her last job trying to drive the Crazy Train was more stressful than dealing with a guy with a gun pressed to her co-worker's head. WOW!

The difference is that people with a little confidence, even as little as my wife had prior to getting her current gig, at least make the effort and give themselves a leg up. People who don't believe AT ALL won't even try; they'd rather sit around, whining and complaining how they can't EVER get a break. Dude, make your own breaks. That's how we do it! It's easier than you think.

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12 Nov 2013, 5:24 pm

AngelRho wrote:

AngelRho, the problem is is I have heard all of this and for me it makes no logical sense. I feel like Alice felt when talking to all of the other characters in wonderland. Let's try to look at it this way. Let's use the concept of abortion. When you, Fnord, and adb speak in this way it literally comes across as though that the abortion of a child caused the child's conception. Another example is, it is like one's death caused someone to be poisoned. You're saying B causes A instead of A causes B.

Confidence in general and a positive outlook on life is caused if the amount of successes is greater than the amount of failures + the knowledge + the wisdom + a sound mind + a sound body. AngelRho, it is not the other way around. You and others in America are making assumptions about a person without looking at the facts at hand and bothering to investigate. Let's say you and others in America are correct about this. Is it possible to falsify this whatsoever in various cases? Is there a null hypothesis to this that exists and can it ever hold up? Is everything you said and believe on this falsifiable? If it isn't falsifiable then you're giving a belief system that is based upon a pseudo-science. Let's say I do not have the ability to do x. Is my inability to do x truthfully an inability caused by lack of a positive attitude or confidence or is it caused by anything else which is the negation of the lack of a positive attitude or confidence? How does one tell either way? How does a scientist or any other professional determine what is what?

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12 Nov 2013, 7:23 pm

adb wrote:

No, I can't clarify further.

Why? Why can't you clarify further? You make the claim that one can succeed no matter the circumstances no matter what and they're in control no matter what? Is this true?

Now you make the claim that you can't clarify any further or instruct me in how to succeed in America, is this correct?

If this is truth than do you accept that your claim has some falseness to it and this extreme and strict internal locus of control people in America believe in has some falseness to it? Is this true?

If you believe that it is true and you accept that there is some falseness to your claim then do you accept that some people may not be able to succeed in America without any help whatsoever? What if they can't succeed in spite of help?

If both conditions are true based upon American beliefs and values will those who need help receive this help from society without expected monetary gain from society, yes or no?

If yes, can you show an example?

If no, then how is America a truly an exceptional and moral society and culture if it will not help those who cannot?

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