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Why wages really are so low today

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Fnord
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03 Jan 2014, 12:50 pm

RushKing wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
Fnord wrote:
This whole concept of "Share the Wealth" is predicated on the fact that people are not created equal, and that they want to be treated as equals by even the most wealthy and worthy among us. Sorry, kids, but life doesn't work that way. If you want to be treated as an equal, then you must become an equal to those whom you want the equal treatment from -- if you want to be treated like a king, you must first be a king; but if all you can manage is to be a chav living on the dole in a council house, then you will be treated as a chav living on the dole in a council house.
Sssshhhhh...... You're making too much sense.
Equal outcome =/= Equal ability, personality etc.

Equal Opportunity =/= Equal Results

... even when ability, personality, skin color, gender, religion, age, geography, wealth, parentage, ... et cetera ... are all equal.



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03 Jan 2014, 12:52 pm

beneficii wrote:
Fnord wrote:
When did I mention you? Does the word 'beneficii' appear in that sentence? Not everything anyone has ever said is all about you. :roll:
Actually, you were saying that of all your opponents. If you had more respect for your opponents, then you would never have said that.

Either put your personal issues in a PM, or take them up with the mods. I'll walk no further down this road with you.



beneficii
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03 Jan 2014, 12:56 pm

Fnord wrote:
beneficii wrote:
Fnord wrote:
When did I mention you? Does the word 'beneficii' appear in that sentence? Not everything anyone has ever said is all about you. :roll:
Actually, you were saying that of all your opponents. If you had more respect for your opponents, then you would never have said that.

Either put your personal issues in a PM, or take them up with the mods. I'll walk no further down this road with you.


I've already shown your main assumption on this thread to be bad, so there may be no need.


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Raptor
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03 Jan 2014, 1:00 pm

beneficii wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Production is only one part of the process. There is also invention, distribution, innovation, service, maintenance, procurement, accounting ... and many other aspects of running a business that can not be performed by automation, such as quality control. Sure, you could invent a robot that would measure a loaf of bread for color, consistency, content, temperature and humidity, but how would the bread taste?

This whole concept of "Share the Wealth" is predicated on the fact that people are not created equal, and that they want to be treated as equals by even the most wealthy and worthy among us. Sorry, kids, but life doesn't work that way. If you want to be treated as an equal, then you must become an equal to those whom you want the equal treatment from -- if you want to be treated like a king, you must first be a king; but if all you can manage is to be a chav living on the dole in a council house, then you will be treated as a chav living on the dole in a council house.

Yes, it's just that simple. Work on improving yourselves to be more valuable to the system, instead of crying about how 'unfair' life is and tearing down the system to such a dysfunctional level that it no longer works for anyone.


:hail: :hail: :hail:

If people would stop whining and take that to heart, their lives would improve.


There's that assumption.


Assumption of what? It doesnt take a genius to figure out that you'll do better by adapting to your environment. In this case, it's certainly not going to adapt to you.


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zer0netgain
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03 Jan 2014, 1:03 pm

ruveyn wrote:
As long as we presume scarcity is the norm, we shall have dog eat dog in some form or another.

....

For the life of me, I cannot figure a way of promoting fairness and justice as normal modes of operation.


There is reference to what's called "Cornucopia Technology"....a level of science where all wants and needs can be met with the press of a button.

I guess a good analogy is Zion in the Matrix trilogy. In Zion, it seems everything needed to live was provided by machines on the lower levels that nobody there built, maintained, or knew how they worked...but without them, life wouldn't be possible. In the movie, the scene illustrates the question if being "unplugged" was really any different than being in the Matrix.

However, that's exactly how it would have to work. A world of complete automation for all necessities and general wants so nobody has to "work" to survive. You'd still have the fundamental question of if we'd have to impose mandatory limits on the global population because humans are no better than rats in this regard. Provide a world of plenty, and people will breed until you can't meet the needs with the available resources.



beneficii
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03 Jan 2014, 1:07 pm

Raptor wrote:
beneficii wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Production is only one part of the process. There is also invention, distribution, innovation, service, maintenance, procurement, accounting ... and many other aspects of running a business that can not be performed by automation, such as quality control. Sure, you could invent a robot that would measure a loaf of bread for color, consistency, content, temperature and humidity, but how would the bread taste?

This whole concept of "Share the Wealth" is predicated on the fact that people are not created equal, and that they want to be treated as equals by even the most wealthy and worthy among us. Sorry, kids, but life doesn't work that way. If you want to be treated as an equal, then you must become an equal to those whom you want the equal treatment from -- if you want to be treated like a king, you must first be a king; but if all you can manage is to be a chav living on the dole in a council house, then you will be treated as a chav living on the dole in a council house.

Yes, it's just that simple. Work on improving yourselves to be more valuable to the system, instead of crying about how 'unfair' life is and tearing down the system to such a dysfunctional level that it no longer works for anyone.


:hail: :hail: :hail:

If people would stop whining and take that to heart, their lives would improve.


There's that assumption.


Assumption of what? It doesnt take a genius to figure out that you'll do better by adapting to your environment. In this case, it's certainly not going to adapt to you.


Actually, one major characteristic of humans is the power to change their environment.

Your assumption is that everyone who is successful holds the same views as you on this matter and that everyone who disagrees with you must be doing poorly. Both you and Fnord have made this assumption. You showed this assumption by saying that your opponents were "whining" or "crying."

I have disproven it by providing a counterexample: Me.


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03 Jan 2014, 1:08 pm

Raptor wrote:
... It doesn't take a genius to figure out that you'll do better by adapting to your environment...

I have one of those inspirational plaques over my desk that reads, "Adapt or Die".

For me, 'death' would be a return to poverty, homelessness and being worthless to society. I had to adapt to the idea that getting out of that situation was entirely up to me (and not society); and once I accomplished that, everything else became easy -- employment, home-ownership, good credit and the respect of my peers.

Now, if I had retained the mantle of victimhood that others in the gutter seem to wear like royal robes, I would still be down there with the rest of them ... or dead.

Self-adaptation is one of the key factors in the "Evolve and Grow" philosophy of success. Lack of adaptivity is a sure path to stagnation and failure.



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03 Jan 2014, 1:13 pm

Fnord wrote:
RushKing wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
Fnord wrote:
This whole concept of "Share the Wealth" is predicated on the fact that people are not created equal, and that they want to be treated as equals by even the most wealthy and worthy among us. Sorry, kids, but life doesn't work that way. If you want to be treated as an equal, then you must become an equal to those whom you want the equal treatment from -- if you want to be treated like a king, you must first be a king; but if all you can manage is to be a chav living on the dole in a council house, then you will be treated as a chav living on the dole in a council house.
Sssshhhhh...... You're making too much sense.
Equal outcome =/= Equal ability, personality etc.


Equal Opportunity =/= Equal Results

... even when ability, personality, skin color, gender, religion, age, geography, wealth, parentage, ... et cetera ... are all equal.
I believe in Equal Opportunity, but it's not all I believe in. Unequal power is what destroyes liberty, and self sovereignty, and to me equal power and outcome are inseprible. If we are to maximize liberty we must focus on equalizing outcome (acsses to food shelter etc.). No one can objectivly quantify an individuals contribution to this world.



Last edited by RushKing on 03 Jan 2014, 1:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Raptor
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03 Jan 2014, 1:20 pm

Raptor wrote:
beneficii wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Production is only one part of the process. There is also invention, distribution, innovation, service, maintenance, procurement, accounting ... and many other aspects of running a business that can not be performed by automation, such as quality control. Sure, you could invent a robot that would measure a loaf of bread for color, consistency, content, temperature and humidity, but how would the bread taste?

This whole concept of "Share the Wealth" is predicated on the fact that people are not created equal, and that they want to be treated as equals by even the most wealthy and worthy among us. Sorry, kids, but life doesn't work that way. If you want to be treated as an equal, then you must become an equal to those whom you want the equal treatment from -- if you want to be treated like a king, you must first be a king; but if all you can manage is to be a chav living on the dole in a council house, then you will be treated as a chav living on the dole in a council house.

Yes, it's just that simple. Work on improving yourselves to be more valuable to the system, instead of crying about how 'unfair' life is and tearing down the system to such a dysfunctional level that it no longer works for anyone.


:hail: :hail: :hail:

If people would stop whining and take that to heart, their lives would improve.


There's that assumption.


Assumption of what? It doesnt take a genius to figure out that you'll do better by adapting to your environment. In this case, it's certainly not going to adapt to you.


beneficii wrote:
Actually, one major characteristic of humans is the power to change their environment.

So if I want snow I just clap my hands? Our ability to change our environment is quite limited.

Quote:
Your assumption is that everyone who is successful holds the same views as you on this matter and that everyone who disagrees with you must be doing poorly. Both you and Fnord have made this assumption. You showed this assumption by saying that your opponents were "whining" or "crying."

A way to rephrase it is that that you'll go farther by walking along the brick wall than to continually walk into it and bang your head on it.

Quote:
I have disproven it by providing a counterexample: Me.

What have you disproven?? You come off as being generally unhappy with a grudge against anyone with an opposing opinion.


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beneficii
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03 Jan 2014, 1:26 pm

Raptor wrote:
What have you disproven?? You come off as being generally unhappy with a grudge against anyone with an opposing opinion.


Actually, I tend to come across quite differently in real life. The Internet is where I discuss all that sickens me, though I have made efforts to reach out to advocacy groups to assist them in things that I really care about.

I don't have a grudge against anyone with an opposing opinion. What I have a problem with is behavior that I have noticed from certain posters on this thread, which they have done repeatedly.


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03 Jan 2014, 1:33 pm

beneficii wrote:
I don't have a grudge against anyone with an opposing opinion. What I have a problem with is behavior that I have noticed from certain posters on this thread, which they have done repeatedly.


Because they have a differing opinion is exactly what it is.....

Behavior........... :roll:


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beneficii
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03 Jan 2014, 1:37 pm

Raptor wrote:
beneficii wrote:
I don't have a grudge against anyone with an opposing opinion. What I have a problem with is behavior that I have noticed from certain posters on this thread, which they have done repeatedly.


Because they have a differing opinion is exactly what it is.....

Behavior........... :roll:


Actually, there's more to it. Let me be more specific for you:

Suggesting that all your opponents have to respond to a comment with is "troll" is one such behavior.

Misrepresenting your opponent's position is another. I saw that on another thread from a poster here.

Saying that one's opponents are merely "whining" or "crying" is yet another.

Failing to provide any evidence for one's view against one's opponent, who has presented much evidence, and assuming that one's opinion is equal anyway, especially where human rights are involved.

The sorts of things above sicken me.


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Last edited by beneficii on 03 Jan 2014, 1:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.

ArrantPariah
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03 Jan 2014, 1:37 pm

Raptor wrote:
beneficii wrote:
I don't have a grudge against anyone with an opposing opinion. What I have a problem with is behavior that I have noticed from certain posters on this thread, which they have done repeatedly.


Because they have a differing opinion is exactly what it is.....

Behavior........... :roll:


How is it that no-one has invoked the T-word?



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03 Jan 2014, 2:23 pm

beneficii wrote:
The sorts of things above sicken me.

Then here ya go.

Image


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03 Jan 2014, 4:00 pm

Fnord wrote:
Automation can not replace creativity


I don't think she or anyone else argued that but what it can do is liberate human beings from the drudgery of the factory floor, enabling them to make better use of their faculties.

I see creative roles as the raison d'etre for humans working.

Work could enrich human life if it weren't used solely as a punishment or reward system for those who manage or those who fail to live up to unrealistic targets. Just because you managed to pull yourself up by the bootstraps doesnt justify the mass misery of those who werent afforded the same opportunities.


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03 Jan 2014, 5:52 pm

Behold the internet! Human creativity - without expectation of pay. Unless there's some rich benefactor who is secretly funding the best original and derivative art people put on the internet for free and the army (or should that be, militia?) of programmers who give us free software?

We already have the technology to provide people with a decent standard of living, requiring only a few hours of labour from them each week. We just need to go ahead and build the systems, then put the plans on the internet and in libraries, available for all the world to have as part of the commons. But don't expect me to do your hours for you. Everyone should have their own house, but that should come in the form of everyone having the opportunity to build their own house, rather than having other people build it for them and just give it to them. Not that I'm advocating the abolition of altruism - I'll pitch in and help you build, and if there's a family that's just been evicted, perhaps we can send them on a holiday whilst we build it, especially if it's Christmas - but you don't have a claim on my labour, nor I on yours.

Of course, I don't mind helping out if I've got a skill you want to learn, nor do I mind spending a few hours as part of the distributed militia that maintains the internet('s replacement). But I might be a bit too busy running a multimillion share business (that's share as in share money).