Conscription

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The least one could expect from people disagreeing with one, would be to actually get any arguments why the disagreement is there.

In this particular situation, I am pointing out that Alternative National Service (non-military conscription) is a bad idea because mentally ill would face imprisonment for not being able to do their duty, because
of their illness.

They are already fighting a system to get access to unemployment or disability benefits. They are living in poverty already, because they can't work.

Now, imagine that they have to face imprisonment too, for not working.

That's the one that I'd like to see arguments against. So far, everybody simply says "I disagree with you" without further notice of why they disagree with my argumentation.

In most countries that practice conscription (Norway being one of them), it's easy to get away from military service. I told them that I wouldn't be able to do it because of my social anxiety, and that I was being screened for ADHD (this was shortly before my Asperger's diagnosis). My brother simply told them that he "didn't want to" and got away with it. Conscription is expensive and time consuming for the military; they won't waste time and money on reluctant recruits just like that.

I think your position is borderline absurd.

Nothing is an absolute. If conscription was mandatory, certainly there would have to be an exception for those UNFIT to serve. A man in a wheelchair would have to have an alternative "service" where his inability to walk/run doesn't pose a liability, but he does his time in service to his community. An autistic person (or any person with a problem following instructions) would have to be evaluated, and if the problem isn't just one of defiance but possible mental/neurological disability, an alternative service requirement would be available. Even people who are conscientious objectors (morally will not serve in a military capacity) would have an alternative service. The point is that EVERYONE who CAN serve in some capacity puts in their time. We'd not threaten imprisonment or punishment for those who legitimately can't serve in the most common/traditional way.

MAYBE 30 years ago your position would be more credible, but with the awareness of emotional/mental/neurological disorders ON TOP OF known physical disabilities, a conscription policy would have to consider what to do with those deemed UNFIT to serve. Even when we had the DRAFT, if you weren't deemed physically fit, you weren't taken. Being flat footed doesn't mean you can't march 20 miles, but the military doesn't spend the money on custom orthopedics so you can. The military has always cast out those who would be more of a liability than a "benefit" to allow to serve. They didn't put these people in jail for not meeting the standards they set.

I have mixed feelings on that. However, I see what happens when a society allows people to be "citizens" but not do their part to understand what that means.

I'd like to think that if we made a through study of American civics mandatory (a whole year studying the Founding Fathers, an un-edited and non-revisionist view of why they rebelled against England and how they went about to craft our Constitution AND a study of the Constitution itself), then we'd produce a generation of Americans who KNOW what our country is supposed to be and that the price of keeping it free is to be eternally vigilant not only against external military threats but internal dogmatic threats that would tell us to reject all the things people fought and died for so that we could enjoy the FREEDOM to make such choices.

When people forget the price paid to obtain something of worth, the value of that item is diminished. Sell the family jewels to a pawn shop for a quick buck...that's often the choice of someone who doesn't recognize how much those jewels are worth. Even if you MUST sell something, you should try and get what it's worth, not just a quick buck. Never trade a silk purse for a sow's ear.

Well, since education isn't doing it, the only other option is for people to get out of the ivory tower they live in and see how important community is. Even the "poor" in America live 10 times better than most of the rest of the world. We don't really know what "poverty" is when you compare us to most other nations. If the schools aren't doing it, life experience is the other answer.

Also, there is a lack of maturity in most Americans. It used to be that a young man knew what it meant to be responsible by age 15. Now it's common to find 21-year-olds who can't bother to show up to work on time and do their job without constant supervision. If we can't find a better way to get people to "grow up," then putting them in an environment where they have no choice but to grow up could be the only option left.

I assure you that LIFE doesn't care if you are ready or not. LIFE throws stuff at you, and you either handle it or be crushed by it. Better to choose to be mature and responsible BEFORE these things happen than wait for the first real life crisis to come your way.

As most of us have probably experienced, failure begets failure. Being unable to handle something only feeds doubt in ourselves and it certainly doesn't encourage someone to give us an opportunity knowing we've failed in the past. How many of us would be better off if someone intervened years ago and got us on the right track BEFORE we started messing things up because we weren't prepared for what we faced?



No. Mandatory service would NOT be eligible for military operations outside the USA. We do not want to create a pool of "canon fodder" for the politicians to exploit. Indeed the "national guard" IS NOT supposed to operate outside the USA. In recent years, that's gone out the window, and few, if any, governors have tried to take a stand against it. This is because most all of the military apparatus has been federalized, which it is not supposed to be. Getting into the national guard is supposed to be harder BECAUSE the number of openings is much more limited than the regular army or the reserves.



Only if the populace is complacent and doesn't hold government accountable. Remember that the whole reason the military draft was ended was because of the problems created by the Vietnam War. It became more trouble than it was worth to rely on a draft to complete the manpower needs of the military.

I think what we have in some people is more laziness and apathy than actual disability. Regardless of the duty and how well suited it me be to them, they just don't FEEL like doing it. "Just give me my check and leave me alone".
It's pathetic.

And......

I still wouldn't want to serve besides a bunch of people who didn't want to be there.

Additionally, the military isn't a cure-all for laziness, immaturity, and stupidity. There are plenty of lazy/stupid/immature people who remain lazy/immature/stupid for their entire enlistment. If anything, they get worse since the military has to step in and wipe their butts for them.

Really? The Military does that for people? That is quite a service.

With my IBS, I'd need to be hosed off, too.

I am not referring to the imprisonment of those who can't do MILITARY service. I am referring to the fact that Altnernative Service (aka "work", mandatory labor) would be threatening those who cannot work for various mental reasons, with imprisonment.

That's the problem with Alternative Service, alternative duties, like working in charity organizations, office or what have you.

Nobody should be imprisoned for not working, regardless of wether it is military or not.



That's outright stupid nonsense yet again from you, Raptor.

You show absolute no insight into mental illnesses. Maybe you don't suffer from anything else but a little Autism, but there are people, like myself, who suffers from co-morbid conditions too.

You should show at least some respect, instead of calling everyone who cannot work for mental reasons "lazy" and "just give me a check"-stupid nonsense!'

You are not a psychologist and I doubt you are a psychiatrist with that sort of attitude, which clearly shows you have no understanding of what you are talking about.

Yes, there are lazy people, but you post makes it sound like everyone who cannot work for mental reasons are lazy.
That's NOT FAIR! That's evil!

And, just for your notice, Apathy is a medically recognized symptom of various medical disorders, like Schizophrenia.

That's a personal attack. In my case I wasn't singling out any individual whereas you are.


Yes, I'm sure.


Respect is earned. Sort of like money......


What a minute: You know I'm not a psychologist but you only doubt I'm a psychiatrist?


I clearly said SOME people. SOME people means just that and not everyone.


Not in my book it aint.

http://www.health.harvard.edu/fhg/updat ... 706c.shtml

http://www.minddisorders.com/A-Br/Apathy.html



This just proves you have no insight into mental illnesses when you say it ain't a symptom of schizophrenia in "your book".

So why post those links since you pretty much know I'm not going to read them?
You said I was evil, anyway.

My father was in the military in WWII and Korea. Drafted right out of high school the first time; enlisted the second. He had planned to be a career Navy man but got RIFed (reduction in force) in 1946. So when Korea broke out in 1950 he went back voluntarily.

He doesn't talk about his war experiences much, but he did tell me once that he is totally against the draft. Like someone else said above, when you are in the trenches, you don't want to be there with people who were dragged there and resent it.

While I agree that some type of compulsory service for everyone, male and female, is a good idea, I think the majority of it should involve community service rather than military service.

I think it comes down to a matter of necessity. You're not getting out of compulsory service in a nation surrounded by neighbors who want to see them wiped off the planet. The USA has the luxury of having (for now) a professional, trained military and more people trying to get in than they have room for. Put untrained conscripts in the ranks and you've got utter chaos. If something happened and we had to go back to the old days in which wars were a numbers game, the only thing anyone is going to care about is whether a soldier can fire a weapon. It doesn't take ANY training for a soldier to blind-fire under cover. I knew a Vietnam vet who earned a medal having done nothing but provide suppressive fire. Apparently he killed several enemy soldiers, which he didn't know until after the fact. He was too busy hiding behind a tree to aim. Suppressive fire, from what I understand, is a pretty basic tactic that is often effective. Your role is to keep the enemy in hiding in order to give other squad members an opening to move in closer. You know you're going to miss more often than hit someone; however, scoring a kill isn't the point.

I think compulsory service for EVERYONE is a fine idea. Just skip the draft. That way, once the country is under attack, the enemy is confronted with an entire nation of fully trained soldiers. You see a foreigner in your backyard? Don't bother mobilizing. Just take 'em out.

It is completely out of my reach of understanding, how so many aspies can be in favor of "compulsory service", "compulsory community service", "compulsory military" and what have you
of other compulsory labor.

I don't think aspies are lazy. I am an aspie myself, and I have been pretty hardworking in my youth, but feared conscription.
I did not fear conscription because of the military in it or facing war. I fear it because I don't want anyone to tell me what to do.

I am an individual, and I would rather die than be subject to enforcement.

I just never wanted to be FORCED to do a particular thing.

That's not a teen thing. I believed it in my teens, I believed it as a child, and today as an adult, I believe in liberty too, just to get ahead of that saying that will inevitably come to most people's minds.

I am completely and utterly AGAINST any type of compulsory labor.

You can force people to pay tax of what you have earned. To earn money is a voluntary thing.

Laws should only be there to provide for the safety of saying "you shall NOT". Never EVER tell me "You SHALL!"

As a Dane, who used to believe the U.S. to be the place of Liberty and Personal Freedom, I now see that most Americans would rather have some sort of
compulsory labor returned. Judging from this thread and other threads on other forums.

You Americans who are in favor of compulsory labor, are a disgrace to your own country.
Your grandparents worked hard to create a country of liberty. Yes, they were drafted in the military, but there is a huge gap between drafting for military, where it is only for military protection,
and where you can avoid it by having adequate medical documentation exempting you, and to actually force everyone to do "some sort of community service" - that is pure slavery!

Well, maybe we're just sick and damn tired of the freeloaders who think the country OWES them something just for being popped out of the womb on US soil.

Every one of us have to carry our weight. That's the law of nature. Most of us, from various experiences, learn we have to work to eat. Many of us are getting tired of those who think the country needs more programs to GIVE them what we had to WORK for.

Americans, as a whole, need a good ass-kicking to get their heads out of their rectums. If we don't do it voluntarily, the rest of the world will eventually hand it to us.

Are not Americans the world's most productive workers?