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Remember Elian Gonzalez?

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pezar
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27 Jan 2014, 3:06 pm

American wrote:
TheGoggles wrote:
American wrote:
I'm not sure if we should be happy or sad that he has secured a position as a member of the Cuban elite and thus is not subject to the horrors that the vast majority of Cubans must suffer at the hands of their oppressive leftist government. I was angry at him after first reading the article but then I realized it just isn't that simple. In any event, Janet Reno's blunder was Cuba's propaganda gain.


Is it more or less oppressive than the American blockade that's crippled their economy for decades after the Cold War ended?


The Cuban government is to blame. China is willing to sell cars to them but, because of leftism, everyone except the governing elite is poor. In the name of closing the gap between the rich and poor the leftists widened it and made it permanent. Kind of like what they're trying to do in the U.S.

From the NyTimes: "Cars tend to be cherished in countries like Cuba where they are not easy to get. Under the Communist government, anyone who wants to buy a car needs approval from an official — and in most cases, even when it has been purchased, it still belongs to the state. Only people who bought a car before the revolution or those who afterward were granted the right to purchase one for personal or political achievements actually own their vehicles."

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/30/busin ... geely.html


Some people say that even in America, you really don't "own" your car. You have to register it with the government, and obtain a driver license (register yourself with the govt) to use it. You get a "certificate of title" giving you the privilege of using the car. Then you have to insure the car by law, and in California the govt gets a daily list of insured cars from insurance companies (sent electronically) and checks them with registered cars. If your car is not on both lists, your registration and license are suspended. So, you really don't own your car in the US, but the govt doesn't call a spade a spade in order to fool people. And then there are those awful "lease" agreements which put yet another middleman (usually a bank or auto loan co) between you and your car. You are granted the privilege to drive the car something like 12,000 miles a year and you have to keep it in tip top shape. Then, after usually 36 months, the financier takes the car back and sells it as "gently used".



sliqua-jcooter
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27 Jan 2014, 3:07 pm

His father could have included himself in a petition for asylum along with his son, he chose not to.


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pezar
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27 Jan 2014, 3:17 pm

American wrote:
I'm not sure if we should be happy or sad that he has secured a position as a member of the Cuban elite and thus is not subject to the horrors that the vast majority of Cubans must suffer at the hands of their oppressive leftist government. I was angry at him after first reading the article but then I realized it just isn't that simple. In any event, Janet Reno's blunder was Cuba's propaganda gain.


Elian comes across as, how do I say this, fully indoctrinated, even brainwashed. He sounds like he's simply parroting what his handlers have told him to say. It's not his fault, he was caught up in the euphoria surrounding his repatriation from the US to Cuba, which the Cuban govt saw as sticking it to big bad evil America. Fidel wanted to turn him into a "model Cuban", and succeeded. At least he has, as you said, become a member of the ruling elite, and will have a comparatively easy life.



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27 Jan 2014, 4:20 pm

sliqua-jcooter wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
I'm going to have to ask you to stop trying to derail the thread.


Threads go where they go. Stop back-seat moderating.


:lmao:

You guys made me laugh. You'd make a great comedy team.

Anyway, did Janet Reno do anything illegal in the Elian Gonzalez affair?



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27 Jan 2014, 4:43 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:
Anyway, did Janet Reno do anything illegal in the Elian Gonzalez affair?


I don't see how you could make that argument. The 11th Circuit had affirmed the decision that only Elian's father could complete an application for asylum, and SCOTUS had declined to hear the case. Janet Reno was carrying out a lawful order to have the boy returned to his father.

The whole thing was beyond ugly.


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27 Jan 2014, 4:47 pm

sliqua-jcooter wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
Anyway, did Janet Reno do anything illegal in the Elian Gonzalez affair?


I don't see how you could make that argument. The 11th Circuit had affirmed the decision that only Elian's father could complete an application for asylum, and SCOTUS had declined to hear the case. Janet Reno was carrying out a lawful order to have the boy returned to his father.


So, if she hadn't done that, then she would have been acting illegally, and would have been a traitor, and possibly merited incarceration.



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27 Jan 2014, 4:49 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:
So, if she hadn't done that, then she would have been acting illegally, and would have been a traitor, and possibly merited incarceration.


I don't know if I would go so far as to call refusing to comply with a lawful judicial order "traitorous" - but yeah. She would have been violating the law.


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ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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27 Jan 2014, 4:57 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:
sliqua-jcooter wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
Anyway, did Janet Reno do anything illegal in the Elian Gonzalez affair?


I don't see how you could make that argument. The 11th Circuit had affirmed the decision that only Elian's father could complete an application for asylum, and SCOTUS had declined to hear the case. Janet Reno was carrying out a lawful order to have the boy returned to his father.


So, if she hadn't done that, then she would have been acting illegally, and would have been a traitor, and possibly merited incarceration.

Well, those people over here should have done the honorable thing and hand the kid over to the authorities. No excuse for having the guns drawn. These people don't care about kids.



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27 Jan 2014, 4:58 pm

TheGoggles wrote:
American wrote:
I'm not sure if we should be happy or sad that he has secured a position as a member of the Cuban elite and thus is not subject to the horrors that the vast majority of Cubans must suffer at the hands of their oppressive leftist government. I was angry at him after first reading the article but then I realized it just isn't that simple. In any event, Janet Reno's blunder was Cuba's propaganda gain.


Is it more or less oppressive than the American blockade that's crippled their economy for decades after the Cold War ended?


It's been way to easy for Castro to blame the embargo. The embargo itself is very patchy; it does not cover IT equipment (except for entertainment only devices, such as the Xbox), it does not cover food, it does not cover anything related to agriculture, and it does not cover medical equipment. Furthermore, it never prevented Castro himself from obtaining Rolex watches or luxury cars.

Without the embargo, Castro would have been overthrown sometime in the 1960's, because he would no longer have been able to blame the US for anything.



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27 Jan 2014, 5:01 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Well, those people over here should have done the honorable thing and hand the kid over to the authorities. No excuse for having the guns drawn. These people don't care about kids.


It's not quite that simple. The way the relatives (and the rest of the Cuban-American community in Miami) saw it, Elian's father was a staunch Castro supporter - the very thing that they all risked their lives to get away from. And his mother died trying to get him away from that life. I can certainly understand their sentiment.


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27 Jan 2014, 5:36 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
What law did she violate?

Image

Ah... that law...

18 U.S. Code § 2392 - Posting obscure images - wrote:
Whoever, owing allegiance to the WrongPlanet rules, posts an image on WrongPlanet, giving other posters no aid or comfort within the relevant thread or elsewhere to determine to the subject of the image, is guilty of obscurantism and shall suffer snarky remarks, or shall be ignored for not less than one post and fined with silly emoticons under this title but not less than 1 (one) :scratch:; and shall be incapable of claiming any victory in the particular discussion on WrongPlanet.


That picture isn't in Iraq or Afghanistan, it was in Waco, TX where in 1993 the federal government MURDERED 80+ American citizens(mostly women and children) under the orders of Janet Reno with approval of Bill Clinton.


Geez, I seem to remember that it was the Branch Davidiots who had started the fire, so they could go out with the fiery apocalypse David Koresh had promised them. And if it was actually the feds who had started the fire, why in God's green earth did they save people fleeing from the fire from running back in? As tragic as Waco was, the fact is, crazy people believing crazy things do crazy, often harmful things.


Do you believe everything the government tells you? Do you think they would tell the truth if the worst of these accusations are true? Ignorance is a choice, I suggest that you watch this documentary 'Waco; The Rules Of Engagement' and maybe you'll have a better idea of what happened in Waco during those 51 days.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4scgRAJxWc[/youtube]



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27 Jan 2014, 5:46 pm

Wow. Great post.

I really learned a lot about Monica Lewinski from that video.


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27 Jan 2014, 5:56 pm

sliqua-jcooter wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Well, those people over here should have done the honorable thing and hand the kid over to the authorities. No excuse for having the guns drawn. These people don't care about kids.


It's not quite that simple. The way the relatives (and the rest of the Cuban-American community in Miami) saw it, Elian's father was a staunch Castro supporter - the very thing that they all risked their lives to get away from. And his mother died trying to get him away from that life. I can certainly understand their sentiment.


Let's just make sure we understand...we are dealing with a Caribbean Island among many. I have visited the region before, just not Cuba. This community of islands is a bastion of poverty, for the most part. People do not live easy lives. Many try to leave for the US so they may have a chance at the American dream. You single Cuba out but it might not even be the worst one. Look at Haiti, for instance. US does not take in every single refugee from these poor island nations.
So, just because he is going to Cuba...would not be worse than if he were Haiti and might not even be as bad. It's just that there are political opponents from Cuba in this country so they are going to spin it like it's hell on earth.
If these people were Haitian instead of Cuban, what would you say then?



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27 Jan 2014, 6:00 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
If these people were Haitian instead of Cuban, what would you say then?


Hatian-Americans don't hate Haiti or it's leaders - Cuban-Americans *hate* Castro. Irregardless of my personal views on Castro, Cuba, or Communism - the Cuban-American population in Miami, including the people providing guardianship of Elian, saw his return to Cuba as a betrayal of his mothers' sacrifice. I understand their position.


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27 Jan 2014, 6:00 pm

Haiti is worse of than Cuba because of AIDS. Apart from that, both countries have been ruled by corrupt, decadent politicians who stole from the people.



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27 Jan 2014, 6:03 pm

Jacoby wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
What law did she violate?

Image

Ah... that law...

18 U.S. Code § 2392 - Posting obscure images - wrote:
Whoever, owing allegiance to the WrongPlanet rules, posts an image on WrongPlanet, giving other posters no aid or comfort within the relevant thread or elsewhere to determine to the subject of the image, is guilty of obscurantism and shall suffer snarky remarks, or shall be ignored for not less than one post and fined with silly emoticons under this title but not less than 1 (one) :scratch:; and shall be incapable of claiming any victory in the particular discussion on WrongPlanet.


That picture isn't in Iraq or Afghanistan, it was in Waco, TX where in 1993 the federal government MURDERED 80+ American citizens(mostly women and children) under the orders of Janet Reno with approval of Bill Clinton.


Geez, I seem to remember that it was the Branch Davidiots who had started the fire, so they could go out with the fiery apocalypse David Koresh had promised them. And if it was actually the feds who had started the fire, why in God's green earth did they save people fleeing from the fire from running back in? As tragic as Waco was, the fact is, crazy people believing crazy things do crazy, often harmful things.


Do you believe everything the government tells you? Do you think they would tell the truth if the worst of these accusations are true? Ignorance is a choice, I suggest that you watch this documentary 'Waco; The Rules Of Engagement' and maybe you'll have a better idea of what happened in Waco during those 51 days.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4scgRAJxWc[/youtube]


Clinton had been so demonized by the right, even before Waco, that I'm hardly going to give paranoid conspiracy theories the time of day. I can still recall how conservatives were claiming evangelical Christians were secretly being gassed by the Clinton administration! Funny how the Bush justice department never followed up on those accusations, or how those making those charges conveniently forgot all about it after Clinton left office :roll:.
And as a matter of fact, I am very familiar with the apocalyptic theology taught by millennialists, and how a fiery, bloody battle at the End Time is supposed to bring back Christ for his Final Judgement. The truth is, Koresh and his cult were only acting according to their theology. So yes, I believe the official government version. After all, the people who are promoting the notion that Janet Reno and Bill Clinton purposely roasted the Davidians is promoted by extremists on the religious right who believe in the exact same ugly theology.


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Last edited by Kraichgauer on 27 Jan 2014, 6:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.