Free Will and The Subconscious...

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Yep.

Here is my reasoning for believing there is free will. Living things will instinctively do whatever will help them survive. Regarding the earlier discussion of being in a fight, if you are about to get beat up you will instinctively run away, or fight if you have to. But people sometimes decide to engage in behavior that is destructive to their well-being, even to the point of committing suicide, and their instincts would never tell them to do something like that.

Your instincts are actually innate attributes, while your subconscious has evolved based on your previous experiences.

I certainly agree but feel the subconscious is also influenced by instinct (to a lesser or greater degree depending on the individual). Instincts are used in the rapid processing that passes as subconscious decision making, even though they may not be available to change. I can't conceive of a subconscious that wouldn't use instinct as a basic tool.

But I wonder about the recent (no offence intended) "kitchen" science studies I see popping up lately.

"fMRI studies have actually shown that the brain reaches a decision up to a second before that decision reaches your conscious mind."

I've observed a study in which this was "proved" while studying a subject calling the flip of a coin. This is quite interesting, but tell me...have YOU ever called a coin flip (and lost) and determined next time you would choose the opposite or the same (you've pre-chosen your next flip?); would this be conscious or subconscious control or a partnership? I feel selection of a proper test goal is of major importance when making these assertions and unfortunately the "kitchen science" I've observed doesn't go nearly far enough to support the conclusions.

I would like to see this test duplicated in a more complex way, with decision making requiring abstract (or what passes for it) thinking for decision making. Otherwise it seems like a curiosity rather than a working hypothesis.

The idea of a modified subconscious being dominant is interesting. How/when/from where do you think the subconscious "arises, or would you feel, as with instincts, the subconscious arose before the conscious?

I hope this isn't too trivial for you but my "Zen hat" is a pointed cone shape similar to one I wore throughout kindergarten.

Since our instincts are experienced they will affect our subconscious. I guess you could say that.

Especially if we consider the subconscious as ascendant or "in charge."

If we were to follow the theory that supposes three forms of thought we can say the conscious, subconscious and ID (???????) are at least semi-independent/semi co-dependent.

Instincts and consciousness are very understandable to me (I think ) but I can not fathom how a separate ascendant process would arise from pure awareness + instinct unless it was only a convenient tool created/used by the conscious mind process for memory/data access/storage/retrieval.

Can someone get me past the "hump?"

I think of the subconscious as an unfocused consciousness, and free will as the ability to focus.

So is "free will" what comes once the subconscious has been processed?

If we by free will mean the ability to focus our mind, then it is exercised in the process when going from a subconscious state of mind to a conscious state of mind. This is how I look at it. Others might have a different view.

I liken the process to what the photographer Ansel Adams, and other famous photographers of the time, called "The Decisive Moment."

For Ansel, standing alongside his huge view camera with his finger on the shutter release, this was the culmination of all his years of learning and experience.

All he'd learned about chemistry and light and people: How he would acquire, prepare and use them, both in the camera, in the field or studio, in the darkroom were all ideas whose understanding and preparation had brought him to this moment.

He used all of his previously acquired experience (memory of same) to "decide" on a direction which (if deemed correct) would indicate memory and subconscious merely tools.

This is the process I believe most people use.

Of course you could say his subconscious did the choosing but a simple light-handed application of Occam's Razor says otherwise.

This would treat the subconscious more as memory with a (personally) self-generated "attitude."

I liked this so I thought I'd throw it in.

Those who see into the Unconscious have their senses cleansed of defilements, are moving toward Buddha-wisdom, are known to be with Reality, in the Middle Path, in the ultimate truth itself. Those who see into the Unconscious are furnished at once with merits as numerous as the sands of the Ganges. They are able to create all kinds of things and embrace all things within themselves. --Shen-hui (as translated by D.T. Suzuki)

It's about mindfulness.

^^Thank you, that's very lovely ^^

You're welcome. I admire as well.

A bit more along the same lines? At "Buddhism and the Unconscious".... http//www.networkedblogs.com/A3ixT

I think that basically you take ownership of your thoughts, but there is no free will.

I guess what you might be saying is that since we don't have any control over certain things that
you don't have "ultimate control" over your life? Am I understanding correctly? That there are
things within everyone that direct our choices, and we are unaware of and have no control over?

I'm saying that I agree there are factors in our lives which we HAD no control over but through
study, understanding and practice we can learn to recognize these factors and recognize how
they affect us, and if we so wish, modify our action.

Will this give a person 100% conscious control over all their thoughts and actions? Perhaps for
some people and not for others. But not doing anything makes it a certainty you WILL be acting
under less than conscious control and more in the grip of unknown forces, thoughts and
instinctive reaction. That's not for me.