Cat-calling is harmless flattery...

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Talk to any expert on the matter, and they'll tell you the exact same thing. But, I doubt you'll listen to them either. You're too stuck on your own incorrect assumptions to take any of it in.

Women have been seen as property of some form for a very long time, yes. That doesn't change the fact that men that sexually harrass and/or assault women *today* are doing it out of a sense of entitlement derived from the notion women are public property.

Unless they happen to be taken. Then harrassing/assaulting them is a matter of insulting their male keepers.

Nobody said this only happens to women. However, it disproportionately affects women. That's what makes it gender based and why discussions revolve around when it happens to women.

But keep on with your "BUT WHAT ABOUT TEH MENZ!" argument.

If you could specify which of my assumptions are incorrect and why, I'll certainly listen to you. But you haven't addressed my points so I don't know what are referring to.

And if you could point out some sociology or psychology articles in major peer-reviewed journals by "experts" on the topic of entitlement I will consider their arguments.

Well, thanks for your totally insightful post there, Tea.

I wasn't trying to make it into a "omg what about teh menz" post.

The women in this thread are literally trying to make this into a "omg what about teh poor womenz" post.

You'd have to be delusional to think that it "disproportionately affects women" everywhere. It doesn't. It's a people problem, not a women problem.

Let me break it down for you, since the point went over your head:

-if you are good looking, whether male or female, you will receive catcalls or unflattering remarks while walking down the street in a sh***y neighborhood. There was a male version of the catcall video where this exact thing happened, and the man actually got quite a few catcalls and stares.

-if you look weird or stand out in ANY way, you will get catcalls (or even jeers) in a sh***y neighborhood. Male or female. My hometown is in Ohio, and I can tell you this happens frequently, especially on the east side of Columbus.

-if you're in a medium-income or higher place, you will likely not get catcalls. Try dressing a certain way and walking through a rich neighborhood. Those richies don't give a s**t. The only ones who might would be the older, insecure ones who only have money to their name and nothing else.

Why do I keep bringing up the sh***y neighborhood thing? Because the lady who made the original video DELIBERATELY walked down the street of one of the worst boroughs of New York (at least according to my friend who lives there) to get catcalls. I've been to the east Harlem area, which is pretty bad, and it's an easy place to get catcalled in. Keep in mind, I'm a skinny, somewhat short dude with big hair, and even with my looks, I was getting yelled at and accosted by mostly women, actually. Some men, too.

Now imagine if this lady went through, say, Forest Hills (another NY neighborhood) she wouldn't get any of that harassment, because it's a totally different location and different culture. Of course if you go through a neighborhood where it's mostly uncultured philistines living there, you'll get all sorts of harassment if you stand out. That goes for either gender. What has to be done is to figure out how to get rid of harassment. Standing around blaming men for it won't get us anywhere.

And you can Stop. Right. There.
A- women definitely experience harassment and catcalls, sexual violence and intimidation-throughout the world- way the hell more than men. If you demand specific reference for that common knowledge I think I can't take you seriously in this conversation.
B- however, not all the women in this thread made it ALL ABOUT OMG ONLY WOMEN GET HARRASSED, because that is not a truth.

So you can stop with that.

...and read my posts.
Thanks.

So stop with the "THE WOMEN IN THIS THREAD" thing, because then you are really edging on the thing you are complaining about.
Nope. Not. Back up.

KTHANKS.

Another point- if someone does not reciprocate, if someone keeps walking, if someone is not making eye contact, if you have to shout to get someone's attention- that is not a reasonable effort at communication.
That is a catcall.
A catcall is harassment, it is not an effort at communication.

You may appreciate people yelling at you or speaking to you or trying to get your attention in a sexually aggressive and/or intimidating way [which is what a catcall is] and that is fine and dandy, but if that is so it would be a minority opinion. It is not aligned with a definition of acceptable versus unacceptable behavior in the context of harassment versus not.

And again? I take care to try and acknowledge this is a people issue.
Often when women start on the men versus women thing, though? It is often because they get forced into that corner. Not always, but often.

It sucks- it IS a people issue. Not a MEN or WOMEN issue.



I am not entirely certain what you are saying here- but you seem to be implying that I might not get catcalls in a more well-off neighborhood... but I would. err.. wouldn't?
In my experience, it will pretty much happen anywhere.
Unless, I mean, you have numerous peer reviewed studies that can clearly support something other than my lived experience...?


...maybe start by not blaming the victim anymore.


No, and ignoring what people are actually saying or cherry picking to support your "everyone is against me" stance is not helping much either. Buck up champ.

Moved from L&D to PPR.

This is the thing that confuses me, though. Are you suggesting that a person who is catcalling somehow needs to know whether the person is being being catcalled is going to reciprocate or not before the catcall takes place?

I just think there are so many grey areas between what is considered a reasonable effort at communication, a catcall, and harassment. I wish these things were more clearly spelled out.



I would never question your lived experience, however I question whether catcalling is done out of a sense of entitlement or whether there are other factors that play a role.

Hypothetically speaking, do I somehow need to know whether you'd like to be punched before I punch you? Or can we just assume that you'd not like to be punched?

No. It is unreasonable to assume the ability to read minds- but that is not what I suggest.


If you YELL at someone- that is not reasonable effort at communication.
If you speak to a stranger clearly and they do not reciprocate, and you speak to them again? That is harassment. They did not reciprocate- did not show interest. If you continue to attempt to force communication, that is harassment.
If someone is staring straight ahead- that is a signal they are not interested in engaging. If you attempt to engage, that is already stepping across a line, though perhaps not an explicit one- but certainly if you speak to that person and continue to do so after they do not reciprocate? harassment.
If you make noises, make gestures, whistle, moan, obstruct someone's path, use any kind of intimidation, insult someone, pressure someone into communication, touch someone without their consent, follow someone: harassment.



If you are unsure if you are making a reasonable effort at communication? You probably are not.




For me I feel that ultimately, when someone does something like that, it is because they feel they have a "right" to. There may be some other factors that come into play, but it comes down to: a person feels they have every right to inhibit another's feeling of freedom and enjoyment, and that other individual does not have justification to feel that they are being mistreated. Because it is appropriate that they be catcalled or harassed- though often it is not even viewed as harassment. So, from my perspective, I really feel that entitlement is a huge element to almost every one of these types of situations in that way, yes.

---

I whistle at someone because I have a right to view their body as what I want, when I want and to make whatever comments on it I feel- that is my "right". It is on display for me, not for them to look nice for themselves.

I block someone's path because it is my right to do what I want- no one else has a right if I establish my priorities first. Right now, I want to block your path and stare you down because it is funny and I'm bored. I am bigger, or taller, or meaner, so that's what I get to do- it doesn't even occur to me that other people don't have this option, ever.

My friends and I are a majority [or a more "powerful"] demographic, so we can form a casual gauntlet as you walk down the street, whispering and laughing. We intimidate you because we can- you won't do anything about it, because we have this given right and privilege to do what we want: and who will question us? You, the person walking down the middle? Unlikely.

---

Being intoxicated or ignorant or simply thoughtless can at times have something to do with any of those situations but I think at the root really IS entitlement, and that's a hard thing to get at. I mean not everyone even realizes they have a sense of entitlement. I have it in certain situations but don't always realize it and have to think through things before I see it.

It is a behavior which is way more common among the working-class and particulary poorly educated men, the poorer the area the more it becomes common- and the more conservative the worse.

In my area at least, in free beach clubs I would see almost no women; the pricer the beach the more women I see and the more they comfortably wear exposed bikinis/swimsuits.

It is also sometimes a form of hatred and humilation from a stronger group (ie.occupying force) toward a weaker/defeated group - I heard stories of catcalling and harassment of PLOs toward local Christians and Shia in particular.

Last edited by The_Face_of_Boo on 24 Nov 2014, 12:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

As someone living in the muslim part of Lebanon I can assure it's not an alcohol-related behavior.
It is more correlated with social class and thugs-areas.

...I'm wondering, through the course of this discussion, if the behavior might look/manifest differently in different areas/neighborhoods?

It might be but the thread is abt catcalling.

As all human behavior goes, different eyes, different views, different responses to the same words and or non-verbal language or other clues.

I rave dance every week and the atmosphere of dance was much more puritanical in the days of John Travolta and button down hairy chests; believe it or not it's true, in the North Florida climate of dance I live in, at least.

There are ogling looks that could be considered a catcall as well, or even sexual harassment per work place law.

But in the dance halls of life it often is considered a compliment particularly as some women freely flaunt their booties in getting maximum exposure of attention to their hindquarters.

And on the beaches of sugar white beaches where I live it's part of the bikini flow at least among the young folks and relatively harmless as a tradition in way of life.

EVEN THOUGH, THIS AREA, IS CONSIDERED Reagan country through and through, when the Bikinis come out and it's time to dance, among the YOUNG TRULY FREE FOLKS, ALMOST ANYTHING GOES, for a 'SENsUAL' compliment on man or woman.

But does it happen in Super-Wal-Mart a little more North From the beaches or even close to the beach; no hell no, as it's just not appropriate but yes the looks do go on in Ogling when others are not looking.

I personally think it's much more dangerous when it's done among disenfranchised males or females that are not as successful in getting mates.

And yeah, believe it or not I have been the recipient of booty dancing from women that follow along in these similar shoes as men, and it's very uncomfortable and I can relate to how it feels when it is not welcome. But it is not something generally speaking that folks take serious when a guy complains about it on the beach or in the dance hall as typically culture still dictates guys are supposed to like ALL ATTENTION FROM WOMEN, WHEN DONE IN 'that' way.

But in the clubs these days women are getting almost as aggressive as men, AND IN SOME CASES MORE, in their ADVANCES toward the opposite sex, but of course people who go to clubs generally speaking are more open and aggressive about sex in all its colors in non-verbal and verbal language. My wife would never go and it's just not an easy place to be for people who DO NOT WANT 'THAT KIND' OF ATTENTION.

BUT YES SOME WOMEN DAMN SURE WANT IT AS MUCH AS THEY CAN GET IT.

And it's a free country (relatively speaking) so in my opinion more power to them, as long as it IS CONSENSUAL.

But seriously there is not much more of a CAT CALL than a strange early twenty something woman coming up to me and rubbing her butt on my front in a dance hall. Men still CANNOT DO THIS AND AVOID JAIL. AND YES, of course that's a good thing, but it just goes to show this damn sure IS NOT A MAN only issue in our culture as it STANDS TODAY, depending on where one goes to have fun.

And I like to dance, JUST DANCE, and no I do not deserve it if I dance, NO MATTER HOW WELL I DANCE, DAM IT...

ButT at around 225LBS of muscle that can leg press 810LBS, yes, I can 'gently' push them out of the way.

They are NOT going to take advantage of me, per the REAL SCARY STUFF THAT WOMEN DO ENCOUNTER THEIR ENTIRE LIFE AS REAL TECHNICALLY DOCUMENTED REASON TO FEAR this kind of stuff, and again this is the reason my wife WILL NOT GO, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE WHETHER I can protect her or not.

And hell no I do not blame her, as I give people space and respect them wherever I go, as human beings, but some folks DO NOT FOR WHATEVER REASON, AND THERE ARE MANY REASONS THEY DO, SO I EXPECT TO WITNESS THIS BEHAVIOR, particularly on the beach and in dance halls. And if need be I WILL STAND UP AND PROTECT SOMEONE WHETHER I KNOW THEM OR NOT, cause I can with just a look, as non-verbal language is powerful stuff, both abused and used to help others.

Actually, the law says you can say such things and it isn't harassment unless you repeatedly do so over a significant length of time. So, it's entirely legal to make fun of people and their identities, as long as you don't do it repeatedly. That's the law at the federal level.
For example, at a nearby college, the school booted a kid for harassment and the courts threatened to boot the school. The majority of colleges have illegally defined terms and policies concerning harrassment, but if the school accepts funds from the government they have to comply with the Federal Terms. Most schools get away with it, until someone challenges them.
Corporations may have their own unique terms for harassment that if broken may lead to the perp being fired, but normally those definitions do not meet the legal standard, which is why they are only fired and not criminally charged.
Now, NYC police is so corrupt, I'm sure they'll charge you for anything. Maybe it is local laws that consider it harassment, which would leave the locality wide open for a class action lawsuit... Of course, NYC can afford better lawyers.

That's the thing about the law in society... it often doesn't matter. What matters is that you have the large enough resources to force people to comply or not comply with the law.

Proto's 3 Laws of Legality:
Rule 1: Trust is a weakness. Those in authority and those with perceived authority will screw with you and give you false impressions
Rule 2: Nearly everything you can imagine is illegal and many things are also legal, somewhat like Schrodinger's Cat. It depends entirely on your own resources and the other parties resources.
Rule 3: The law is nonsensical to it's core.
-The words of the law are unique unto themselves and so laypeople don't know the law. In most cases the original definitions still apply, are hundreds of years old, and not even the judges or lawmakers remember until some smalltime lawyer shoves it into their faces again and pisses them off by pointing out that the they have all been doing things illegally for decades and forcing them to pay reperations to tens of thousands of people who lost previous hearings... Or not because the words of the law only actually apply when the person with the greater resources thinks they should, otherwise it's about the "spirit of the law" which is some abstract justification for illegally forcing other people to do stuff under the guise of the law.