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MDD123
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02 Jan 2016, 2:56 pm

Rollo wrote:
I can't wait. Maybe one of these days you could produce a post where your graphs and your conclusions actually form a coherent whole.


Naw, if the graphs don't work, he'll move on to brow-beating.


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Jacoby
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02 Jan 2016, 3:41 pm

GGPViper wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Why is it preferable to a poor person to import millions of people to undercut your wages and quality of life if these companies won't even hire Americans? They want exploited slave labor, it's not fair and we don't have to stand for it. I do not care about Warren Buffet and Mark Zuckerburg's bottom line is.

But successful business owners like Warren Buffett and Mark Zuckerberg *do* care about what their bottom line is... That's why they are successful.

And so far your suggestions - higher wages and less immigration - will adversely affect their bottom lines when running their business in the US rather than abroad...

If you are genuinely concerned about creating and maintaining US jobs, then why are you advocating a policy which will likely lead to the exact opposite result?


It defeats the whole point to me if those jobs aren't available to Americans, it's not a fair trade to me so I'd call their bluff. Automation is inevitable anyways, then we will have to guaranteed basic income with the majority of the population being useless as war as work is concerned so more people wont help, this country can't take care of it's own people and infrastructure as it is. I don't think it is fair that other countries can take advantage of us and have protectionist policies but we're expected to bend over and take it while our jobs and industry go with it.



GGPViper
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02 Jan 2016, 3:43 pm

Rollo wrote:
That's not what I meant and you know it. The idea that rich countries (simply by virtue of being rich countries) are faced with a choice between (i) opening up their borders to poorer countries, (ii) having all the sort of work that made them rich outsourced overseas, or (iii) going communist - is nonsense.

Well, you didn't actually come up with any examples of *what* these countries should actually do, so I'm not exactly obliged to take your word for it.

That being said, there are indeed multiple policies that a country may introduce in order to increase the competitiveness of its workforce. The most obvious one would be to increase focus on education and (re)training, making sure that US citizens - to a greater extent - are educated within the fields where there is in fact demand for their labor. And as I demonstrated in a previous post, it might be a good idea to take a good hard look at math skills in the US.

Unfortunately, there is a lot of opposition in the US to the implementation of Common Core (and the results of its introduction are only modestly positive on educational scores), meaning that an ambitious focus on education is unlikely to surface in the US any-time soon.

Furthermore, even if the US did double down on education, the effects of this policy would take years (or, for highly skilled professions with long educational programmers, perhaps even more than a decade) to take effect.

Companies are in need of skilled personnel now. Immigration fills that need. So does off-shoring. But waiting for a government initiative years in the future that may or may not even be implemented while having to turn down orders and seeing projects delayed by shortages does not fill that need.



Jacoby
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02 Jan 2016, 4:03 pm

It all comes down to whether or not you believe the premise that they can't find Americans to fills these positions and I do not believe that is the case with the vast majority of the positions. If they pay a fair wage with decent working conditions the there is more than enough people that need work.



GGPViper
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02 Jan 2016, 4:18 pm

Jacoby wrote:
I don't think it is fair that other countries can take advantage of us and have protectionist policies but we're expected to bend over and take it while our jobs and industry go with it.

Since November 2008, The United States has been one of the most protectionist countries in the G20:

Image

Source: http://www.globaltradealert.org/sites/d ... 0Turns.pdf (see page 22)

Also note that Russia and India (the only ones more protectionist than the US) export more to the US than they import (see page 66 and 86). Russian and Indian businesses are thus much more likely to be harmed by US protectionism than vice versa.



MDD123
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02 Jan 2016, 4:32 pm

My brother-in-law was an electrical apprentice in houston before he lost his job to undocumented workers. I also have a cousin who doesn't work in construction anymore because undocumented workers were cheaper. Trade work is not a reliable career option anymore.

For the record, the US could do a better job of investing in post-secondary education; but that still doesn't address dishonest business practices, especially abuse of the h1-b visa system which has affected even our skilled employees.


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LoveNotHate
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02 Jan 2016, 5:40 pm

We need more people-pleasing, dumb people in America.

Low wage service jobs is where the job growth is.