I am not asking you, I am f*****g telling you! Fantasy based

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18 Feb 2016, 10:14 pm

Morality is a set of normative principles intended to govern and delimit human behavior. Why have such a code at all? Why shouldn't we just act according to the whim of the moment?

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Fugu
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19 Feb 2016, 12:04 am

luan78zao wrote:

Morality is a set of normative principles intended to govern and delimit human behavior. Why have such a code at all? Why shouldn't we just act according to the whim of the moment?

because society would fall to pieces.

luan78zao
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19 Feb 2016, 12:26 am

Fugu wrote:

because society would fall to pieces.

And why would that concern me?

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19 Feb 2016, 12:58 am

I've read people saying that moral principles like not stealing, assaulting or killing are based on the fear of being a victim and that this invalidates them.

The only natural and universal moral code is the law of the jungle. The only virtue is strength and the only sin is weakness.

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luan78zao
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19 Feb 2016, 1:11 am

Spiderpig wrote:

The only natural and universal moral code is the law of the jungle. The only virtue is strength and the only sin is weakness.

Is that really how you want to live? There's always somebody stronger and meaner.

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19 Feb 2016, 7:06 am

Spiderpig wrote:

This more or less is what I'm saying outside the existence of a god.

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19 Feb 2016, 7:14 am

androbot01 wrote:

beakybird wrote:

I understand what you are saying. I personally agree to some extent. But it still doesn't make it a "moral" not to steal. I'm only saying something cannot be declared universally wrong if there isn't a universal definition of what right is. And my argument is only a creator god can dictate that absolute. We can push our views of right and wrong around from group to group, but it's still going to be relative because none of us can force those opinions into existence as an absolute rule. A creator god can.

I'm not so sure. I think our morality springs from something inside of us and that religious stories are a way to illustrate what we already know. It's not a matter of force. It's in our nature.

I don't think people are naturally moral at all. Do you think neanderthal man (assuming you believe in evolution) had any moral dilemma at all to killing another tribe with whom they were competing for food? Or do you think they stop, thought, and drew up a fair agreement to share based on their own indwelling, instinctual morals?

I tend to think, like many primates, they killed all of the men women and children of the rival tribe if evolution happened they way many people accept it did.

If you believe otherwise then ok, that's your belief. I just find it illogical to assume people were moral and cared about others before laws and social constructs dictated they needed to. Because we're just animals that have learned a lot of tricks. Take away the rewards and see if we still roll over...

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19 Feb 2016, 7:25 am

Hopper wrote:

beakybird wrote:

kraftiekortie wrote:

It's moral not to steal--

Says who. That's the point. Just because people agree on things, even if it's a lot of people, doesn't make it right.

It kind of does.

Suppose the Bible is a fib, and there's no God. Where, then, did morality come from to end up in there?

I think morality is inescapable. I think it arises (amongst other things) from our awareness of each other as separate but social beings, from an intuition, if you will, of the golden rule.

I also think the difficulty comes not so much in discerning what is right and wrong, but that there is often more than one right response for a given situation. There are competing moral claims.

I think basic notions of morality become reified and (literally) set in stone. They come to seem something that is 'out there', but in a way that is hard to make sense of without having a God or cosmiscism to hang them on. I don't think objective/subjective are useful ways to look at morality, but rather the hangover of an assumption that doesn't really bear out.

I believe the universality of "instinctual morality" if you will, is one of the primary proofs God exists. It had to originate from somewhere to have basic morals more or less universal across cultures. We have social needs are part of our survival as creatures, but we're all very tribal at the heart. Taking care of one's own immediate family and loved ones (or tribe) is instinctual. Caring about humanity as a whole is not. Other tribes are competition for resources. They are potential threats. It's counter-intuitive to care about their well being from a survival standpoint. And minus the existence of a god, survival is our only motivation and our only purpose.

So where then did a moral code, contrary to our sole purpose come in? And not only come in but come from? And why is it so accepted in very different cultures? Namely your basics like not killing or stealing- stealing is the one I really focus on because stealing something, from a survival standpoint, is the wisest thing to do if presented the opportunity. In my opinion there's no logical way to explain how stealing became wrong.

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19 Feb 2016, 9:19 am

luan78zao wrote:

Spiderpig wrote:

The only natural and universal moral code is the law of the jungle. The only virtue is strength and the only sin is weakness.

Is that really how you want to live? There's always somebody stronger and meaner.

I don't think I have a choice. All the laws, written and unwritten, we live by rest on the law of the jungle. They're only valid insofar as those who break them get in trouble for it, which is the same as saying someone stronger and meaner enforces them.

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19 Feb 2016, 9:36 am

QuillAlba wrote:

It frustrates me also.

Shouting and swearing at believers doesn't not sway them to your cause.

I find a frontal lobotomy works best.

QuillAlba wrote:

It frustrates me also.

Shouting and swearing at believers doesn't not sway them to your cause.

I find a frontal lobotomy works best.

I have tried the nice way with some success but fantasy believers are highly brainwashed.

Time for some tough love.

Lives and a lot of tax money is at stake.

Regards
DL

Last edited by GnosticBishop on 19 Feb 2016, 9:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

GnosticBishop
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19 Feb 2016, 9:38 am

Oops.

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19 Feb 2016, 9:45 am

androbot01 wrote:

Christianity and western culture are linked, but actual church participation seems to have lessened.
That leaves Jews and Muslims. Their religions appear to be both going strong.

I think religion is used as a front for differing political groups and goals. So if the "fantasy" was removed, the fighting would remain.

I agree that Buddhism is much more useful for personal and cultural growth.

Islam is growing from reproduction and threats of violence and Jewry is close to atheism.

Muslim and Jewish actions at the political level show how both religions are evil and should both be banned. All they are good for is producing homophobic and misogynous people.

Regards
DL

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19 Feb 2016, 9:50 am

There are, indeed, people who identify as Jews who are rather close to atheism.

Judaism itself, however, is obviously not atheistic. It is, obviously, a monotheistic religion, especially during and after Abraham's time. To say that Judaism is close to atheism is just dead wrong.

Islam has been a thriving religion since at least the 7th century. There seem to be more people on the "fringes" of Islam, though. Perhaps that aspect of Islam is growing because of such things as poverty, lack of education, alienation, etc. These "fringe" ideologies have an effect, unfortunately, because of the effects of their actions.

Mainstream Islam is just like mainstream anything.

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19 Feb 2016, 9:52 am

helloarchy wrote:

Could you define a fantasy based religion, or list them please?

I agree in principle with what you're saying. I'm also a supporter of Buddhism, there is much wisdom to be gained from their teachings. A wise mind can take bits from all religions, and use them to make themselves a better person, while also selectively leaving out the bad and "fantasy".

My focus is Christianity and Islam as they are the most evil of the fantasy based religions.

They are causing a lot of death and we squander a lot of tax dollars giving them respect they certainly do not deserve.

If you are an esoteric ecumenist as you say, then look into my religion, Gnostic Christianity, and you will see how religions are supposed to be. We are perpetual seekers and not like the idol worshiping evil that Christianity and Islam have become.

Regards
DL

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19 Feb 2016, 9:56 am

0_equals_true wrote:

Who is to say what is a fantasy religion or not?

They all have fantasy in them. You can't ban expression. You can challenge their ideas.

You are to say what is a fantasy religion or not. You are capable of that. Right?

Recognize that they are evil and promote banning them please. That is the right thing to do with evil.

Why are you reluctant and giving respect to evil and refusing to try to rid the world of that large evil?

Regards
DL

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19 Feb 2016, 9:59 am

Fugu wrote:

GnosticBishop wrote:

I am not asking you, I am f*****g telling you! Fantasy based religions should be banned.

which religions are based on actual things then? Church of the flying spaghetti monster?

Eastern religions. They promote seeking knowledge and wisdom.

Christianity promotes obedience and Islam promotes submission.

See the difference?

That is why Christianity and Islam are evil while other religions are less so.

Regards
DL

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