America- the Brainwashed Nation

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BS. A love for one's nation does not mean slavery to one's government. It is very possible to be both a lover of liberty and a patriot. I think what you mean is right totalitarianism, not patriotism and if you consider the 2 to be the same then you frankly need to re-examine these things. Not only that but patriotism is also a sign of pride which is the thing that the man in the video would have undoubtedly been trying to remove in order to demoralize us. I do not say these things because I am trying to assert the US as the divine holy nation. I know it is full of crappy problems, but rather because I think that the argument put forward of brain-washing is crap.

You have absolutely no idea what the heck you are talking about. Griff, did you actually listen to that man's statement? He said we were subverted with communist thought. Communists would support this measure and others. Griff look at the stuff you are actually arguing and don't bring in BS into this debate. This has nothing to do with the proper healthcare policy. I didn't say anything about supporting any measure. All I said is that we still resist communist ideas which we do, which disproves the thesis stated there.

I have my own friends who have traveled outside the US, so don't give me this BS. The US is not a third world country by just about any measure. Anyone with half a brain knows that. Just like anyone with half a brain knows that most of Europe is not just filled with socialist 3rd world states on the verge of collapse. Griff stop bringing in sophistry and bring in sophistication.

The problem is that for our tax dollars we do not get much in return. Technically speaking though, that only depends on the taxation measures used. Some taxes go up as growth goes up and some go down.

Myth??? Europe is more "socialistic" in politics. This is not to say that the US is some free market paradise or even to say that we refrain from interventionism at all. This is to say that the ideas held in Europe go more in line with the ideas behind socialism. That is pretty much a fact and not an outdated belief. You are simply being ridiculous by claiming that I do not keep up with my s**t. The US beats out most of Europe in economic freedom, and the US has less tolerance for the idea of a welfare state which is a more left wing idea. Stop attacking simple comments as being untrue simply because you want to make a point. I know my s**t.

Yep, we do not have a socialist paradise as the KGB man says that his subversion would push us to do but rather a convoluted web.

So you spout out BS all of your life? That is nice to hear. Griff, maybe your mind should monitor itself a little better. I said absolutely nothing I cannot back up and nothing that asserts the superiority or any other thing about the US nor do I attack Europe as being "ebil commies" I merely have asserted that they lean more left a statement to which they would agree!! I have talked to Europeans before, they consider the democrats a right wing party. That says something about their politics sir, and it means that we are to their right and therefore not infected with the more left wing ideas of communism.

My assertions regarding Europe are still relatively true. Europe is more left-wing than the US. If you ask a European they would agree and be sad for our corrupt little system. I know that America's anti-communism is somewhat lip service, however, we still tend to be more resistant to the ideals than other nations. If anything we have more fascist tendencies than communist. The KGB man argues we have been subverted by the latter and not the former, therefore, my comments contradict him. I have said nothing incorrect or uneducated. It may be true that I ignore a few nations in this but mostly to capture the Europe that most people have in mind when I say Europe.

They're blithering idiots for not getting their crap together a long time ago. I have complete contempt for them unless they're actively doing something to improve their lot, and, really, a lot of them are. They're not the ones who are apt to call me a whiny brat, though. They're actually going to respect me for wanting to make my country a better place to live.

Dude, it was a figure of speech. Really, it's a pretty widespread way of criticizing a country for not quite living up to some expected standard. Okay, so the usual phrasing is "second world" rather than "third world," but the intent of it should have been pretty clear.

We're losing jobs at a pretty rapid clip. Yeah, some of the greatest institutions of scientific research still reside on our soil, but dude, MIT is not the entirity of the US pop. The way I see it, our labor force is demoralized, our skilled professions are in decline, and we're becoming nothing but a low grade service economy slowly devouring the remains of our old wealth. I don't mean to be defeatist, but the Republicans have just, in less than a decade managed to trash everything that we've worked and slaved for over the past two hundred years. Furthermore, they're acting more like communists these days than the Democrats ever did. The old Democratic Left are looking over at these guys and going, "WOW, what are we going to even say to that? Crimony!"

They're coming over here to replace our own demoralized workforce. If our own labor force would just get its spine back, they wouldn't find so many opportunities. Hey, it's all well and good for them to come to make a better life for themselves, groovy, great, but the horror of this is that the only reason they can do so is that we're killing our own viability as an economy. The Republicans keep blaming the problem on the immigrants, all on the immigrants, but, you know, the most racist, bigoted, hillbilly white trash I've known will actually affirm that the immigrants are better workers than the crap WE produce in the same sentence that they pronounce their hatred for the same people. We're losing our independence. You know, idependence: it's that thing that we fought and died for a couple hundred years ago. My bloodline is descended from some of the dudes who built this country, and all I can do is helplessly watch while everything that my ancestors fought for is squandered away by the stupidity of the same breed of creep they were fighting against.

What part of the American system isn’t socialized at the Federal level? Perhaps health care but even that has much government oversight. Education, socialized. Employment, socialized. Retirement, socialized. Business, socialized. Housing, socialized. Agriculture, socialized. Space Exploration socialized. Firearms, socialized. Air Traffic, socialized. Cable TV socialized. Broadcast TV and Radio, socialized. Highway Construction, socialized. Manufacturing, socialized. Financial Markets and Transactions, socialized. Fish and Wildlife, socialized.

I could go on and on. By socialized I mean the Federal Government re-distributes your money (taxes) to either finance or regulate a certain sector or institution of society. Here is an incomplete list of what they do: www.usa.gov/Agencies A hundred years ago we had very little of this. Even fifty years ago government interference was much, much less.

The point is we live in a liberal-socialist society with powerful centralized controls that very much resembles communism. Maybe not Soviet style, but communism none the less. But this is not what Yuri Bezmenov is talking about in the video I posted. I bring this up because people seem to misunderstand or confuse overall political ideology with economic details. They miss the forest for the trees.

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When Bezmenov talks about patriotism he is talking about nationalism. The kind of nationalism that was prevalent in America up until about the 1940’s. He is making the case that demoralization has allowed this change in the population. Yuri Bezmenov is also being critical of the egalitarian notions of “equality” and “social justice”. He seems to indicate that these ideas, that went mainstream in the 1960/70’s, did so because people had become so demoralized they could no longer resist, and now as a consequence they are thoroughly brainwashed.

So brainwashed in fact that they fully accept the restrictions they live under. Certain ideas are off limits. Political correctness is the closest thing we can call it without getting in trouble. Speak the wrong words and you could loose your job or worse. Don Imus is a recent example of this. Of course very few will acknowledge these restrictions as destructive. And those who go further then acknowledge it, those who actually preach the verboten loudly, will reap the full hatred of everyone. And the crowd will consider it well deserved. That is the true power of brainwashing.

Dude, I actually went on to explain how the modern sense of "patriotism" differs from that of the founders of the country. I bet you already understood that, though, and just posted this swill up anyway as some pathetic, lowlife way of discrediting my views. You don't have any morals, do you? This wouldn't be the first time you've shown yourself to have all the straightforwardness of a tangle of yarn.

(Double post removed) -J.L.

Last edited by Jacob_Landshire on 03 May 2007, 8:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

And a lot of this has to do with the progressive movement and the Great Depression and the rise of Keynesianism and even McCarthyism. I am not going to disagree with the idea that we have too much socialism, however, I do not think that this is the same subversion that the KGB man was talking about. The US is not so much USSR as it is Mussolini and the KGB man spoke more of pinko-communism.
50 years after the Keynesian consensus? Makes sense. I do not think that Keynes was a result of the KGB so much as the result of hard times and things of that nature. Keynes was not that much of a communist and probably fell to the libertarian-right of quite a few of his followers. His arguments were used by fascists and the progressives already in existence though.
Well, we live in a society that although not resembling communism by much, still has some unnecessary interventions that harm us. It is not what Yuri is speaking of though. We definitely need to recognize that our government supports many hidden corporate interests, and other interests in an attempt to help the few at the cost of the many and support a sense of security at the cost of essential liberty.


Well, we still have a strong level of nationalism and more so than most of the other nations. Equality did rise up as a concern but less so than other nations. I might buy the idea that the men of the 70s were somewhat corrupted, however, this does not mean that America has rotted.

I think that many of us can get by without giving a f**k about political correctness. I mean, if Don Imus is an example of the great evil then we must really be in the super early stages.

America isn't a nation, it's two continents. Jeez...

I didn't say that it did. This is merely the modern understanding of patriotism. I think that I was pretty clear on that. In fact, it was the whole premise of that part of my post. Get real, man. Try actually responding to the views I present instead of the views you would like to project onto me to discredit. I just feel I'm very much under attack here. It seems that what I said didn't register with any of you at all, and I really made an honest effort to give some productive discussion on the issue. I don't try to BS anyone here. I waver on my views a lot, simply because my views are really whatever happens to be on my mind at the time, something that's subject to change like the weather, but I don't try to sell you BS. Look, all I want is for what I'm actually getting at to be recognized. Forget whether you agree with it or disagree with it; at this point, I just have an aching need to feel I've actually communicated anything at all to you that vaguely resembles my own feelings on the matter.

Yes, I did watch the clip. He's a paranoid idiot, but he raises some interesting points.

If you must know, the "third world" comment, regarding the US, is just what I generally hear from the chaps I've known who have visited other parts of the world. I understand it to be an exaggeration. I have at least that much capacity with figures of speech.

Great idea to win me over, dude. It looks like you're really trying, here.

You're approaching this discussion with the preconception that you have a monopoly on common sense, and it makes you seem to me like an unbelievable loser. Perhaps I'm guilty of the same thing, and maybe that's part of the reason that my statements on patriotism didn't quite register with you the way I intended them to. Really, what I said earlier on patriotism is probably one of the more intelligent statements I've made on this forum, and it's disappointing that it was so completely lost on you.

I deleted a lot of material from earlier because it turned out to be a crap post. Please don't quote it. I just want it gone.

Last edited by Griff on 03 May 2007, 1:47 am, edited 3 times in total.

And how many times has it been said that some great evil will over take us or that we have failed beyond repair? Too many times I'd say. It is almost like some big recurring myth. I am not defending Bush by any measure, as he was not an ideal manager of the economy. Given the US's many strengths I do not see this death that you claim there is, we have high innovativeness, strong technological institutes, good institutes, solid economic freedom, and so many other strengths that to call us dead seems the deception of the age. We still have a lot of growth, many corporations here recruiting many American workers, etc, etc. Griff, you are being defeatist and ridiculously so. The Republicans have failed to rejuvenate our education and subsidize some research and created some large debt. The education problem has existed for some time, research subsidies are nice and good for research, and the deficit is simply a problem to deal with. Considering that I have not heard of any major economist argue that the US economy is dead, I am disinclined to believe that it is. I will not claim that the republicans have done a good job under Bush, however, the US economy is a bit too resilient to die. We have had good times for quite some time now and I do not think that they will vanish into mist.


I don't see much demoralization. We have a very low unemployment rate which tends to make me think that our people are getting opportunities and the mexican workers can as well. Really though, it doesn't matter how moralized our workforce was, Mexicans would still get in. They are willing to do more for less than most Americans get, and jobs are not just a lump to be distributed. We will not get rid of them. Yeah yeah yeah, we are so screwed you know. I mean, oh noes, we now have Mexican immigrants. Maybe we will start trading more stuff with other nations too. Who knows, the ebil foreigners might buy more of our bonds too. I am still not that concerned and we are still chugging on quite well. I think you are just being gloomy again, which is the woe that seems to strike democrats whenever they give out a message (besides Obama as the man has charisma).

Whatever, man. Keep yourself convinced you have a monopoly on common sense. Fine. I'm done playing this crap.

Get real? You get real. WHAT???? You are doing that to me!! I have projected absolutely NOTHING ON YOU! You have not been making very honest efforts at all! You have been projecting your evils on me!! ! I think that the real issue is that you are just rambling off!

I know you have and that is why this is the annoying shock it is. It is like a piece of your brain crawled out of your ear.

The KGB person??? The guy did not say much that was paranoid.

Ok, fine, I will try to keep that in mind. I just tend to have an issue with the topic matter changing. I tend to get angry when the topic changes on me.

Leftist or fascist? Our government really doesn't behave so much pinko commie as it does fascist. The latter was not what was brought up, the former was.

Griff, I am not full of much BS. I tend to think that you are the sophist here. Thanks for telling me this as you know, I love hearing from a crazy internet person on how my point of view is evil. That isn't to be too cruel to you, however, you are extremely unfair to me with that statement. You are merely attacking me for believing an idea different from yours without regard to my pragmatism or intelligence and heck, I will be honest, I do not see you as being the pure pragmatist you love to consider yourself to be. Griff, this is a political debate, both sides are sophists attacking each other on sophistry. Your truths and wisdoms are untruths and follies to me and I think that you would say the same on my own comments. Right, I just mean that I have friends who have gone abroad to Europe and had their own unkind comments. I really do not think that this is a matter where your friends or my friends are objective, good sources to trust and such I would avoid this entire aspect.

Um....... don't all societies go in that direction? You are just describing reality.

Griff, stop, you are being a sophist here. They are to our economic left, every sensible person agrees that on average they are and thus are closer to the ideal of pinko-socialism. Griff, must you be contentious on a matter of pure definitions? If you want me to list off various ideas in the various nations and programs that are more pinko than America would bear then I would and could do so. It just seems useless as EVERYONE I have ever talked to accepts this as true.

You are merely contentious Griff. Nobody I have EVER talked to agrees with your comment accept for you of course.

I know the point you are trying to get at, but it is not the important issue.

Because you merely quibble with things that are almost accepted as universally true Griff. I am not sensitive, when you spout out plain BS then I am not kind. I don't really want to drag out some almost universally accepted truth into some long inane debate or stringing of facts. It is way way way way way too annoying. I already know that by my definitions I am right, you are either being contentious or are confusing the fascist elements of the US with the pinko-communism I am primarily concerned with pointing out.

Right. Ok.

Griff, are you going to make me point out the various programs and statistics in the US that would contradict this? It is ridiculous. I have spoken to Europeans, they consider us all right wing nut jobs. The mad, crazy, neoliberal Thatcher in England is in some ways too left for us given her acceptance of national healthcare.

Not socialism Griff. Fascism. There is a difference between the Marxist ideal and that which we put forward.

Griff, try letting into your head that you are quibbling with me on something that I have never run into definition problems with. Europeans I have talked to agree with me, Americans I speak to agree with me, my basic knowledge on the institutions agrees with my statements. This is not a matter of me being plain arrogant, you just contradict my common sense on a level that seems ridiculous, I would have slapped you already for 'tardedness if I were talking to you. You just are not getting the argument I make on pinko-socialism in the US. We have our fascism statism and all but we are not pinkos like the man argued. We are not concerned with any form of social justice or anything of that nature like they are in Europe. Europe is lauded by the US left, and it is definitely more left than the US. No, I am not concerned with flat taxing Eastern Europe but rather the part of europe that we all tend to consider european, the developed 1st world nations and all. I really do not see the difficulty in understanding here. It makes no sense.

The US is f%^ed up and the EU is also. If my great homecountry of Canada gets our act together we could clean out. We are much more compotent in many respects than americans. Americans are fat and lazy, we atleast try not to be. The europeans are annoying and elitist, up until a few years ago we were an agrian nation.

I CAN'T believe that I saw this.
This is like calling the Confederates
patriots. Our founding fathers were
nothing of the sort. They were rebelling;
the Tories were the patriots.

AG, dude, I think you're delusional. That's pretty much the bias on which I'd write any further replies to you. I know you don't find it flattering that I feel this way, but I'd be lying if I told you otherwise.

This actually depends a lot on where in the EU or, for that matter, the US you happen to go. One of the reasons I get a little annoyed with conservatives who boast about our economic prosperity is that our economy is actually hedged up in a few of the most liberal parts of the country. We have entire states that would be considered "developing countries" if they weren't part of the Union. I imagine you could say the same thing for Canada, actually.

That's pretty much what I say of the US.

Actually, I've known a few Canadians who complained about their experiences with your healthcare system.

Well, I think not so much "lazy" as short on morale.

Elitist? Oh, so the Europeans DO take pride in where they're from! Innnnnnteresting.

Griff, I have been feeling the same way about you recently. Apparently we are speaking past each other, or something but I very rarely have it happen that my point is lost so completely as it is on you. It is as if you are on alternate-earth or something. The really weird aspect of this is that you seem to say the things I have been wanting to say but refraining from, even though I perceive less reason on your part given that I have been relatively impartial on this argument. Heck, if I were the right winger you would like to see me as I could have a field day talking on the "ebil college professors".

You both talk so much s**t it is not hard to see why you don't understand each other.
You should get a room or something.