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Trump says Hispanic Americans have an 'inherent conflict'

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ZenDen
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06 Jun 2016, 12:23 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Shrapnel wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
For all Trump's railings against illegals being prone to criminality, and lacking American values, I think it's widely understood that illegals is just code for Latinos among racists.


Illegal is not a race, skin color or ethnicity, it is simply a character trait of dishonesty. You have a rather vivid imagination.


No, illegal is not a "race, skin color, or ethnicity," but when racists speak of illegals, it's code for Latinos as a whole. That's why white supremacists are endorsing Trump right and left. Seriously, are trump or any of his supporters at all concerned about illegals coming from Ireland? Of course not, because they're white, despite the fact that they might have IRA terrorist connections. They're only concerned about brown people coming into the country.


When "I" speak about illegals I'm talking about people who have broken this country's laws (and not just immigration laws)...and I don't consider myself racist. You know who I'm talking about??? The 10 or 20 million living here now.

And we've had surprisingly little problem with Irish street gang killings and bombings here...how about where you live? No problems with the Canadian street gangs lately either....This sounds ludicrous because of your ludicrous statement. But, in fact, there have been plenty of killings, kidnappings, robberies, rapes, etc. by many other illegal gangs.....I JUST HAPPEN TO FORGET WHAT COLOR THEY WERE. Maybe you can help?

Hiding our head in the sand will not provide solutions.



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06 Jun 2016, 12:28 pm

ZenDen wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Nobody's saying that. ".

The OP used the word "policies".

Kraichgauer wrote:
[Rather, all people of a certain ethnic background shouldn't be demonized because of the actions of a criminal element among them, as racists do. And that racist perception shouldn't be the basis of national policy.

Trump isn't demonizing anyone.

We have a problem.

The worst of humanity is entering the country illegally.

They kill, rape, kidnap, molest, run drugs, break into people's homes, car-jack ...

Understandably, because they're very poor, uneducated and likely don't speak English.

This doesn't happen with Canadians, because they aren't poor, are educated, and speak English.

Overtly, this has nothing to do with race.


Yes, he is demonizing Latinos, as fewer of them commit crimes as compared to Americans. Trump is just pandering to people's prejudices by making an unpopular group scapegoats. And seriously, how many Americans are going to work back breaking migrant jobs, that don't pay workers what they're worth, and that offer zero benefits? Illegals in fact pay taxes, and don't reap benefits, all the while doing jobs the rest of us would be out of our minds to do.


"he is demonizing Latinos, as fewer of them commit crimes" I'd like you to prove this. People that say things like this are missing the point.

First remember the Mexican government will only "vet" people on a legal track for entry. So the argument is illegals are just like (or similar) to the general population...so if the general population in the U.S. is 10% criminal then the Mexicans will not be higher.....what kind of asinine stupidity is this??????

This means of the 10 million or so illegals then ONE MILLION are criminals....rapists and thieves... and this should somehow make me HAPPY? Until this number is brought down I'm totally against illegal immigration...even if for no other reason.

"And seriously, how many Americans are going to work back breaking migrant jobs, that don't pay workers what they're worth, and that offer zero benefits? Illegals in fact pay taxes, and don't reap benefits, all the while doing jobs the rest of us would be out of our minds to do.

And here you seem to be trying to defend the additional illegality of people trying to take advantage of these illegals. Have you done manual labor? I have. I've worked with every color and nationality and I'll say a man with a family who needs to put food on the table will have no problem doing manual labor....I don't care what color he/she is. You may not have the experience to understand this, but the statement you pass along about race or color and not wanting work, is very very racist.

And you seem to be saying that it's good for illegals to sneak into this country so illegal employers will have people to grind down.

The answer/solution the government ignores (being in cahoots with these huge agri-businesses) is comprehensive immigration reform that allows workers some dignity. But how much "press" do you see this idea getting? Please don't add to the misunderstanding...it just slows progress/reform.


I have done plenty of manual labor, as a matter of fact.
And sure, people will work almost any job to feed their families. But the fact remains, Americans are not rushing to do that kind of work illegals are willing to do. Here's a hint: Agribusiness should raise wages, cut work hours, and either provide benefit, or lobby the government to provide benefits like health care, if they want Americans to replace illegals in those jobs.
And no, my point wasn't to make you feel any safer that a million out of ten million illegals are criminally inclined. Rather, it was that, despite what Trump and his fanclub say, most illegals aren't violent criminals.
The whole notion that stopping illegal immigration is a cure all for America's economic woes is just xenophobic, nativist propaganda, as no one's going to get ahead doing the kind of jobs they do.


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06 Jun 2016, 1:39 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:
GoonSquad wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
lostonearth35 wrote:
Trump is a sexist, racist madman and if he gets elected we can all kiss our sorry butts goodbye cuz we gonna get nuked. :(


I doubt the subjugation of Canada will require nukes, we'll have the boy scouts do it, or maybe the coast guard.



Fallout 1 brings back memories.

The video doesn't show it, but I always remember the part when they open the vault, and un-expectantly slaughter the people.

"Welcome to the brutality"

You're thinking of the intro to Fallout 2... Set to "Kiss to Build a Dream On" great intro and probably my favorite game.


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06 Jun 2016, 1:47 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
ZenDen wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Nobody's saying that. ".

The OP used the word "policies".

Kraichgauer wrote:
[Rather, all people of a certain ethnic background shouldn't be demonized because of the actions of a criminal element among them, as racists do. And that racist perception shouldn't be the basis of national policy.

Trump isn't demonizing anyone.

We have a problem.

The worst of humanity is entering the country illegally.

They kill, rape, kidnap, molest, run drugs, break into people's homes, car-jack ...

Understandably, because they're very poor, uneducated and likely don't speak English.

This doesn't happen with Canadians, because they aren't poor, are educated, and speak English.

Overtly, this has nothing to do with race.


Yes, he is demonizing Latinos, as fewer of them commit crimes as compared to Americans. Trump is just pandering to people's prejudices by making an unpopular group scapegoats. And seriously, how many Americans are going to work back breaking migrant jobs, that don't pay workers what they're worth, and that offer zero benefits? Illegals in fact pay taxes, and don't reap benefits, all the while doing jobs the rest of us would be out of our minds to do.


"he is demonizing Latinos, as fewer of them commit crimes" I'd like you to prove this. People that say things like this are missing the point.

First remember the Mexican government will only "vet" people on a legal track for entry. So the argument is illegals are just like (or similar) to the general population...so if the general population in the U.S. is 10% criminal then the Mexicans will not be higher.....what kind of asinine stupidity is this??????

This means of the 10 million or so illegals then ONE MILLION are criminals....rapists and thieves... and this should somehow make me HAPPY? Until this number is brought down I'm totally against illegal immigration...even if for no other reason.

"And seriously, how many Americans are going to work back breaking migrant jobs, that don't pay workers what they're worth, and that offer zero benefits? Illegals in fact pay taxes, and don't reap benefits, all the while doing jobs the rest of us would be out of our minds to do.

And here you seem to be trying to defend the additional illegality of people trying to take advantage of these illegals. Have you done manual labor? I have. I've worked with every color and nationality and I'll say a man with a family who needs to put food on the table will have no problem doing manual labor....I don't care what color he/she is. You may not have the experience to understand this, but the statement you pass along about race or color and not wanting work, is very very racist.

And you seem to be saying that it's good for illegals to sneak into this country so illegal employers will have people to grind down.

The answer/solution the government ignores (being in cahoots with these huge agri-businesses) is comprehensive immigration reform that allows workers some dignity. But how much "press" do you see this idea getting? Please don't add to the misunderstanding...it just slows progress/reform.


I have done plenty of manual labor, as a matter of fact.
And sure, people will work almost any job to feed their families. But the fact remains, Americans are not rushing to do that kind of work illegals are willing to do. Here's a hint: Agribusiness should raise wages, cut work hours, and either provide benefit, or lobby the government to provide benefits like health care, if they want Americans to replace illegals in those jobs.
And no, my point wasn't to make you feel any safer that a million out of ten million illegals are criminally inclined. Rather, it was that, despite what Trump and his fanclub say, most illegals aren't violent criminals.
The whole notion that stopping illegal immigration is a cure all for America's economic woes is just xenophobic, nativist propaganda, as no one's going to get ahead doing the kind of jobs they do.


"But the fact remains, Americans are not rushing to do that kind of work illegals are willing to do.

There is no "fact" to remain. Illegal immigrants are employed in many different jobs...including office. Just because you haven't seen them should not be a factor in this discussion. I know people like to push the idea of the poor worker sweating in the fields, but this is the only part of the story that sees publicity; certainly not your fault.

"The whole notion that stopping illegal immigration is a cure all for America's economic woes is just xenophobic, nativist propaganda, as no one's going to get ahead doing the kind of jobs they do"

I'm not sure who you're quoting about the "cure all" but once someone (an illegal or other) gets a business toehold they begin hiring people like themselves, in my experience. Any open job. This works well, I've seen, also in Florida, where a little bit of "seed money" from home (Cuba) can help the desperate immigrant make a life here in the U.S.A. and start their own business.

None of these things are new. The Irish, the Polish, etc. all had the same difficulty, crime, prejudice when they immigrated. But this doesn't make these things right. And making up stories to make ourselves feel better doesn't help the situation either.



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06 Jun 2016, 2:17 pm

This nation was built by immigrants; let's not forget that.

Until 1924, immigration wasn't severely restricted. If you were a healthy person with a few bucks in your pocket, you had no problem getting through Ellis Island.

After 1924, different story.

In reality, without sponsorship, marriage, lawyers, or the combination of all three, one cannot legally immigrate to the US these days. There are covert programs which give easy green cards sometimes--but not to most people who seek to immigrate. Nor can most Americans immigrate to Canada without the same combination.

The problem with Americans sometimes: they are so isolationist that they don't seek to put themselves in other peoples' shoes.

If you were a Mexican making a dollar an hour in some factory, and your family was barely surviving, what would you do if somebody offered you $6.00 an hour in Texas to pick cotton? (yes, of course, $6.00 an hour is lower than minimum wage).

In Europe, it's a different story. Any Spaniard could immigrate to the UK legally, and get a job there.



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06 Jun 2016, 2:36 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
they are so isolationist that they don't seek to put themselves in other peoples' shoes.

America accepts more immigrants per year than any other nation on the planet.

The problem is with the illegal kind.

Likely, they are very poor, uneducated, and don't speak English.

This makes them more criminal-prone.

Further, we have this bizarre situation where because they are illegal we release them back into society after they murder, rape, kidnap ....



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06 Jun 2016, 2:46 pm

There are quite a few undocumented immigrants who are not criminals, and who pay taxes. I've met some of them.

If there was a path to legality, they'd take it. Hook, line, and sinker.

But there really isn't, for all intents and purposes.

They seek a 50's version of the American Dream, something which is obsolete these days for most people. You'd be surprised how Beaver Cleaverish some of their notions are. If we had these notions, we'd be laughed out of the room.

Much of the money they make goes back to their families remaining in their previous countries. Usually through Western Union money orders, until recently.



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06 Jun 2016, 3:08 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
There are quite a few undocumented immigrants who are not criminals,


Think about what you just typed, that statement is contradictory.

Undocumented is a doublespeak euphemism for illegal.

The fact that they are here means they are already criminals.



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06 Jun 2016, 5:15 pm

ZenDen wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
ZenDen wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Nobody's saying that. ".

The OP used the word "policies".

Kraichgauer wrote:
[Rather, all people of a certain ethnic background shouldn't be demonized because of the actions of a criminal element among them, as racists do. And that racist perception shouldn't be the basis of national policy.

Trump isn't demonizing anyone.

We have a problem.

The worst of humanity is entering the country illegally.

They kill, rape, kidnap, molest, run drugs, break into people's homes, car-jack ...

Understandably, because they're very poor, uneducated and likely don't speak English.

This doesn't happen with Canadians, because they aren't poor, are educated, and speak English.

Overtly, this has nothing to do with race.


Yes, he is demonizing Latinos, as fewer of them commit crimes as compared to Americans. Trump is just pandering to people's prejudices by making an unpopular group scapegoats. And seriously, how many Americans are going to work back breaking migrant jobs, that don't pay workers what they're worth, and that offer zero benefits? Illegals in fact pay taxes, and don't reap benefits, all the while doing jobs the rest of us would be out of our minds to do.


"he is demonizing Latinos, as fewer of them commit crimes" I'd like you to prove this. People that say things like this are missing the point.

First remember the Mexican government will only "vet" people on a legal track for entry. So the argument is illegals are just like (or similar) to the general population...so if the general population in the U.S. is 10% criminal then the Mexicans will not be higher.....what kind of asinine stupidity is this??????

This means of the 10 million or so illegals then ONE MILLION are criminals....rapists and thieves... and this should somehow make me HAPPY? Until this number is brought down I'm totally against illegal immigration...even if for no other reason.

"And seriously, how many Americans are going to work back breaking migrant jobs, that don't pay workers what they're worth, and that offer zero benefits? Illegals in fact pay taxes, and don't reap benefits, all the while doing jobs the rest of us would be out of our minds to do.

And here you seem to be trying to defend the additional illegality of people trying to take advantage of these illegals. Have you done manual labor? I have. I've worked with every color and nationality and I'll say a man with a family who needs to put food on the table will have no problem doing manual labor....I don't care what color he/she is. You may not have the experience to understand this, but the statement you pass along about race or color and not wanting work, is very very racist.

And you seem to be saying that it's good for illegals to sneak into this country so illegal employers will have people to grind down.

The answer/solution the government ignores (being in cahoots with these huge agri-businesses) is comprehensive immigration reform that allows workers some dignity. But how much "press" do you see this idea getting? Please don't add to the misunderstanding...it just slows progress/reform.


I have done plenty of manual labor, as a matter of fact.
And sure, people will work almost any job to feed their families. But the fact remains, Americans are not rushing to do that kind of work illegals are willing to do. Here's a hint: Agribusiness should raise wages, cut work hours, and either provide benefit, or lobby the government to provide benefits like health care, if they want Americans to replace illegals in those jobs.
And no, my point wasn't to make you feel any safer that a million out of ten million illegals are criminally inclined. Rather, it was that, despite what Trump and his fanclub say, most illegals aren't violent criminals.
The whole notion that stopping illegal immigration is a cure all for America's economic woes is just xenophobic, nativist propaganda, as no one's going to get ahead doing the kind of jobs they do.


"But the fact remains, Americans are not rushing to do that kind of work illegals are willing to do.

There is no "fact" to remain. Illegal immigrants are employed in many different jobs...including office. Just because you haven't seen them should not be a factor in this discussion. I know people like to push the idea of the poor worker sweating in the fields, but this is the only part of the story that sees publicity; certainly not your fault.

"The whole notion that stopping illegal immigration is a cure all for America's economic woes is just xenophobic, nativist propaganda, as no one's going to get ahead doing the kind of jobs they do"

I'm not sure who you're quoting about the "cure all" but once someone (an illegal or other) gets a business toehold they begin hiring people like themselves, in my experience. Any open job. This works well, I've seen, also in Florida, where a little bit of "seed money" from home (Cuba) can help the desperate immigrant make a life here in the U.S.A. and start their own business.

None of these things are new. The Irish, the Polish, etc. all had the same difficulty, crime, prejudice when they immigrated. But this doesn't make these things right. And making up stories to make ourselves feel better doesn't help the situation either.


Most illegals do field work. And even those who do office work and the like, make up so little of the job force that it hardly is going to matter.
And yes, plenty of people who will vote for Trump think that kicking out illegals will free up tons of jobs and wages for Americans. Trump doubtlessly knows this isn't true, but he also knows what to tell his supporters, who he considers to be rubes and cretins, what they want to hear.


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06 Jun 2016, 5:22 pm

ZenDen wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Shrapnel wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
For all Trump's railings against illegals being prone to criminality, and lacking American values, I think it's widely understood that illegals is just code for Latinos among racists.


Illegal is not a race, skin color or ethnicity, it is simply a character trait of dishonesty. You have a rather vivid imagination.


No, illegal is not a "race, skin color, or ethnicity," but when racists speak of illegals, it's code for Latinos as a whole. That's why white supremacists are endorsing Trump right and left. Seriously, are trump or any of his supporters at all concerned about illegals coming from Ireland? Of course not, because they're white, despite the fact that they might have IRA terrorist connections. They're only concerned about brown people coming into the country.


When "I" speak about illegals I'm talking about people who have broken this country's laws (and not just immigration laws)...and I don't consider myself racist. You know who I'm talking about??? The 10 or 20 million living here now.

And we've had surprisingly little problem with Irish street gang killings and bombings here...how about where you live? No problems with the Canadian street gangs lately either....This sounds ludicrous because of your ludicrous statement. But, in fact, there have been plenty of killings, kidnappings, robberies, rapes, etc. by many other illegal gangs.....I JUST HAPPEN TO FORGET WHAT COLOR THEY WERE. Maybe you can help?

Hiding our head in the sand will not provide solutions.


As a matter of fact, there had been plenty of Irish gang violence in 19th and early 20th century inner cities, while the likes of wh***y Bulger continued that sort of organized Irish crime in Boston. The Irish in time became Americanized, and were just another part of the quilt of American ethnicities. The same will in time apply to Latinos in the inner cities.


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06 Jun 2016, 5:30 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
In Europe, it's a different story. Any Spaniard could immigrate to the UK legally, and get a job there.

True! A lot of people I know are doing that! Some graduated Spaniards are cleaning toilets, anyway. But at least, they have a job.
Another problem, normally, is that people here are terrible at English, even though it's obligatory to learn it at school.


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06 Jun 2016, 5:53 pm

What I think is so offensive about what Trump said here, is that other Americans can not be trusted in this or that situation if it might be perceived as negative regarding a person's ethnicity or religion.


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06 Jun 2016, 6:27 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
What I think is so offensive about what Trump said here, is that other Americans can not be trusted in this or that situation if it might be perceived as negative regarding a person's ethnicity or religion.


I would say it's a danger to racial and religious equality, as well as the rule of law, if someone can force a judge to recuse themselves because one of the parties has a problem with their race or religion. I don't know why you are describing it so lightly as "offensive", unless you mean "offensive to the Constitution".


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06 Jun 2016, 8:13 pm

beneficii wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
What I think is so offensive about what Trump said here, is that other Americans can not be trusted in this or that situation if it might be perceived as negative regarding a person's ethnicity or religion.


I would say it's a danger to racial and religious equality, as well as the rule of law, if someone can force a judge to recuse themselves because one of the parties has a problem with their race or religion. I don't know why you are describing it so lightly as "offensive", unless you mean "offensive to the Constitution".


Well, it is offensive to the constitution, but it's also offensive to those of us who hate seeing our fellow Americans treated as "the other," when they are of a different religious or ethnic group.


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07 Jun 2016, 10:20 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
There are quite a few undocumented immigrants who are not criminals, and who pay taxes. I've met some of them.

If there was a path to legality, they'd take it. Hook, line, and sinker.

But there really isn't, for all intents and purposes.

They seek a 50's version of the American Dream, something which is obsolete these days for most people. You'd be surprised how Beaver Cleaverish some of their notions are. If we had these notions, we'd be laughed out of the room.

Much of the money they make goes back to their families remaining in their previous countries. Usually through Western Union money orders, until recently.


I live in a neighborhood that's about 90% immigrant. For the most part, they are all young, TWO PARENT families. Every evening in the summer our local park is packed with whole families barbecuing and socializing while their kids play...

They work hard, start businesses, go to church. They do EVERYTHING the right says good people SHOULD DO. The only problem is they speak another language (or with an accent) and their skin is a few shades too dark.

Most of the actual crime among people of color comes from Americans who grew up in isolated urban communities ravaged by generations of poverty and/or systemic racism.

Around here, the people to fear are poor, drug addicted white people.


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07 Jun 2016, 12:12 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
This nation was built by immigrants; let's not forget that.

Until 1924, immigration wasn't severely restricted. If you were a healthy person with a few bucks in your pocket, you had no problem getting through Ellis Island.

After 1924, different story.

In reality, without sponsorship, marriage, lawyers, or the combination of all three, one cannot legally immigrate to the US these days. There are covert programs which give easy green cards sometimes--but not to most people who seek to immigrate. Nor can most Americans immigrate to Canada without the same combination.

The problem with Americans sometimes: they are so isolationist that they don't seek to put themselves in other peoples' shoes.

If you were a Mexican making a dollar an hour in some factory, and your family was barely surviving, what would you do if somebody offered you $6.00 an hour in Texas to pick cotton? (yes, of course, $6.00 an hour is lower than minimum wage).

In Europe, it's a different story. Any Spaniard could immigrate to the UK legally, and get a job there.


Thank you.

THIS is the problem:

"In reality, without sponsorship, marriage, lawyers, or the combination of all three, one cannot legally immigrate to the US these days."

American agri-business and their lobbyists make sure illegals keep pouring in for work so they do not have to pay minimums., benefits, etc. And every single U.S. administration has made sure nothing will change. The only difference is some cry giant "crocodile tears" while screwing the immigrants over for the benefit of their agri-business masters. All of the rest is smoke and mirrors.