Transgender Olympians: The end of female sport?

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The numbers may or may not be entirely accurate ( I compared the numbers for men vs. the numbers for women, trans women likely lie somewhere inbetween), but the general idea seems to be valid. While testosterone is an important factor, it's not the only factor. Another factor, significant for Fox, would be shoulder physiology. And it might be true that trans women have lower average testosterone, but is the same true for trans athletes? Since we are talking about elite athletes, we're talking about the extreme end of the bell curve, not the average.




A good reason why she shouldn't have to face cis male MMA fighters. I'm actually looking forward to if and when she faces Ronda Rousey, in part due to this debate. The quote from Brents earlier makes me suspect that there really is a significant advantage to having gone through puberty as a male even after transitioning, even if the mechanism behind it isn't entirely clear.




And if you allow trans women to compete in the womens divisions, then the cut-throat, bleeding-edge nature of elite sports will make it advantageous to seek out and actively recruit trans women over non-trans women. Which kind of has the same result.




If it gave them a chance to get as rich as some of the male elite athletes, I wouldn't rule out the existence of people nuts enough to give it a whirl. But I think the point is that the rules for elite sports should be more robust than the "honour-system". Relying on "they wouldn't do that" is rather untenable. Also, wasn't this exact scenario an episode of "Futurama"?

This is getting a bit "could she do it on a cold wet Tuesday in Darlington?"

Obviously she's no Messi or even Valbuena, but if Jay Tabb can make it in the Championship then she has a fighting chance (or would have at her best). I'd use her as a substitute striker in a 4-4-2 with a really strong partner who could win the flick ons.

Some of the best conversations I've had about football begin with something along the lines of "Could X do a job for us?".



I'd give her a free role in midfield, behind a decent target man, flanked by a pair of wingers. It'd give her the freedom to find her own space and play to her strengths. I'd rather have an Almen Abdi or a Ross McCormack there though.

Is that also the requirement for an American bio male to compete as a woman in the Olympics? Has the Olympic Committee come up with a uniform set of rules, or is every country free to invent their own standards?

This happened in MMA fwiw, the transwoman fighter Fallon Fox did pretty well knocking out 5 of her opponents but did lose to a higher ranked female fighter who is now in the UFC.



It's hard question to answer, I think it is rare enough that it should be considered on the individual basis. There are a lot of arguments about the male frame, bone density, the effects testosterone has on the body, the counterargument that transwomen usually have lower testosterone as they have neither testicles or ovaries to produce it naturally, and all types of other things. I think tentatively those that fully transitioned and have used hormones for years could compete but it's something that would have to be debated. I think MMA is probably a more extreme example, most other sports you aren't matched up physically that way. Honestly, it's a pretty silly fear to think there is a going to be a rush of failed male athletes castrating themselves so they can dominate female sport Juwanna Mann-style. There are extreme variances between those of the same sex at birth, there are differences between races, I think some people have a narrow view of this issue but when you back up a bit it doesn't seem as concerning.

Nothing has changed.

Men on average, are still stronger, and will be for any realistic and foreseeable future. The same with women and the ability to have children. Perhaps science can augment both into one sex, but that's not natural evolution.

Today, men might be weaker than their fathers, but that's due to less manual labor (weightlifting doesn't help mitigate that either). They're still a lot stronger than women on average, just as only women can have babies.

I have a few things to say about this. The person in the thumbnail of the video is Caster Semenya, who is not transexual, but intersexed.

She was born with female genitalia, and accordingly, raised female. At puberty, her body began producing significant amounts of testosterone and she very apparently virilized. There are a few intersexed conditions that can cause this, but her specific condition has never been publicized. Do I think her condition gives her an unfair advantage when competing as a woman? Yes.

As for male to female transexuals, in many instances, they are required to be on testosterone blockers for one or two years before competing as women. While being on testosterone blockers for this period of time does decrease muscle mass, the question remains as to how similar their muscle mass, fiber density and fiber type composition, blood supply and innervation become to that of a biologically born women in that period of time. I suspect that the merely training with the advantage of the effects of testosterone on the muscle and brain, leaves a residual overall advantage even after two years on testosterone blockers. I suspect also that the wider frame gives some advantage in some situations.

I think that if a male to female transexual wishes to compete in some sport in the women's category, it should be determined on a case by case basis.

that's probably what keeps people from changing their sex for sports (or from developing more advanced biotechnology to make it more competitive). the fear that they might not be allowed to compete and that it would all be for nothing

which is a good thing

I think it's important to look at this objectively from a scientific standpoint.

The question needs to be asked does this transgender person have an unfair biological advantage over the rest of the field? If so, then I really don't think they should be allowed to compete with non-transgenders. They still deserve a chance to compete though so maybe a new category would have to be created.

it's complicated though. because, by the very nature of competitive sports, those who naturally have "an unfair biological advantage" (taller, stronger, etc) will tend to be at the top. so you're already talking about outliers even when you talk about "the rest of the field"

it's hard to define who you're comparing to, when comparing people's strengths and skills and finding out who's exceptional is already the whole point of it all. what allows you to determine who has an advantage over the other competitors is typically the competition itself. and then the one who has an advantage typically gets a medal. effort matters, but effort alone doesn't win anything. so an arbitrary line has to be drawn, no matter what

in the end it all comes down to two main points: 1. is it entertaining enough?, and 2. does most of the audience get to root for someone who has a chance to win? tickets and advertising (or sometimes propaganda). in practice, a general sense of fairness is only a secondary requirement to make those two points possible

NOT TRUE.
FEW transgender women take the full regimen of change
transgender women DO NOT have menses.. a REAL WORLD -REAL LIFE handicap on performance and health.
And the changes in bone density in their future old age if they stay on blockers does not change fact they have a head start and in first years have twice the mass potential than a women of their same discipline and age group
Birth control btw affects runners, swimmers and skiers markedly and in clincial tests. Transgender do not hav eto contend with that either.

Robert Biel, MD:
"Whether male to female or vice versa, a trans person's bone structure is unlikely to change in a significant way. If you were born female, you're still more likely to be shorter, smaller, and have less dense bones after transition; if you're born male, you're more likely to be taller, bigger, and have denser bones. And therein lies the controversy.

"A FTM trans person will end up somewhat disadvantaged because they have a smaller frame," Beil says. "But MTF trans people tend to be bigger, and may have certain strengths from before they started using estrogen."

It's these particular advantages that are raising tough questions for athletic organizations around the the world. "I think for high school or local athletic organizations, it's a small enough difference that people should largely ignore it," he says. "It's a harder question when you're talking about elite athletes."

The loss of strength caused by first year of hormone therapy can be made up within the following year through training because the muscle mass is already there and the temporary loss of strength with testosterone starvation of the muscles can be accomodated if diligently worked with (as athelete gaming the system will be doing).

I have naturally occurring steroids that muck around my fertility but can make me awesomely buff in mere months of a gym schedule. I was a X game competitor in DH racing. If I can get that kind of buff up in my power level, what could I do if I had been a man first? I prolly would bench press cars! But in the end I still have girly wrists, glove size 5 hands, tiny ankles, hips that soften and separate in the ligaments during menses and more so during pregnancy. I still have smaller ribcage and lungs. can probably beat men in cycling, swimming, soccer, hockey if trained, but Competing in track& field or weightlifting I will get beat by men in their superior physical build in those events. a man wearing a dress in no exception.

I would refuse to compete against a transgender. And urge others as well. Or just have ALL gender events and natural women get a handicap *shrug*. Somehow I see that killing the sports realm.

Bumping this old thread to add this:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -comp.html

Outrage over transgender female weightlifter who destroyed her rivals by hoisting 19kg more than the runner-up - and now she's a contender for the Commonwealth Games

-Lauren Hubbard made her international debut in Melbourne on Sunday
-Ms Hubbard, who transitioned in her 30s, won her weight division by 19kg
-It led to outrage from some Aussies who claimed the playing field wasn't even
-But others defended Ms Hubbard, who has passed the IOC's criteria

My prediction of 10 years for female sports to be dominated by transgender "women" may have been a bit too generous.

bumping a year old thread to add a daily mail link

The thing is though all males don't have 40% greater upper body strength than all females, what if a female born that way had a more masculine build than most women, should they then compete with males. I don't know it just doesn't seem it can be necessarily assumed that transgender women would have an advantage over any non trasngender woman athlete. Also gender/sex isn't as clear cut as some people think it is quite possible for a woman to have a more masculine build or a man to have a more feminine build and things like that on the more extreme end people that have genitals for both male and female. So I think further research would be needed to really determine if there is a consistent advantage for transgender women or not.

additionally testosterone levels can vary from person to person, and that's before you add in HRT.

I wonder if maybe this thread should be locked? I don't know why we're even debating this. Whole lotta transphobic BS in this thread.