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Shahunshah
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08 Apr 2017, 9:34 pm

B19 wrote:
Shahunshah wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
Immigration doesn't cause terrorism. People within immigrant groups cause terrorism. Then again, there's also terrorism among non-immigrant, native-born people, too.

The vast majority of immigrants everywhere are law-abiding. The bad apples cause problems for immigrants who want merely to provide for their families in both their native and adopted countries.

I don't think you should have been banned.

But it should be remembered that immigrants are seeking a better life. The vast majority want peace and quiet. They hate terrorists amongst their ethnic group at least as much as the native-born people do.

Look at it from the viewpoint of a Syrian. Would you want to stay in Syria under present conditions?
Why can't we just say that immigration such as the immigration from Algeria to France causes terrorism. Why do we have to say people within Immigration causes terrorism. Its saying one and the same thing? It is just being politically correct for the sake of it.

Why should I have to constantly justify myself to these people and say their are some bad apples but they are almost always good people. That should be a given. Its just that when people hear someone as anti immigration they are so used to throwing words like racist... racist.. can't we just stop with the assumptions.


It's not political correctness. New Zealand has had immigration and a lot of immigrants and has had for a long time - all of your life and long before that. So if immigration causes terrorism, New Zealand must be riddled with it. It isn't. The only terrorist incident here was committed by the top levels of a country we regarded as a friend (France) in the 1980s. (The bombing of the Rainbow Warrior in Auckland Harbour in the 1980s). Immigration is used by some bigots to smear all immigrants and all immigration. You don't want to be one of them, I am sure, and this isn't political correctness, it is about balance.
I think you are taking what I have said out of context. I am referring not to all immigration but from immigrants coming from North Africa specifically to France.



Amebix
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13 Apr 2017, 9:01 am

Shahunshah wrote:
by God does the left have to show they understand it.

IMO this is the most important of your post, but it's something I think you need to go into more detail on. Anyone who doesn't have background on this idea will easily overlook it because they won't know what to make of it. While I disagree that the threat of terrorism warrants stricter immigration controls or vetting, at least in the US since we already have the strictest vetting system in the world (two year wait period involving multiple reviews of candidates), you're right that trying to avoid admitting the Salafi Islamist component of modern terrorism has created a serious weakness for the Democrats and the political left more broadly (basically Sam Harris' argument). It's important to recognize the rise in discrimination and hate crimes against Muslims and Middle Easterners, but that should not mean pretending to be blind to the cultural component of modern terrorism. Doing so has made it so that people concerned with the issue have turned to the right wing, who are willing to be more up front about it. That actually gives the Left less power to fight discrimination since fewer people are even paying attention to them, because they feel lied to.



Jacoby
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13 Apr 2017, 9:15 am

France has a serious issues with immigration, those that don't want to admit that have an agenda of their own. Integration and assimilation aren't happening, youths are growing up in these suburban ghettos becoming more religious and resenting the west. I remember a poll from a few years ago that gauged support for ISIS in France at 16% and 27% with 18-24 which is even higher than the Muslim countries I've seen polled. That's just the general French population, not even just Muslims. Thousands of French Muslims have gone and fought for ISIS too, if these people are EU citizens then they're going to come back.

Assimilation and culture has to taken into account with immigration, it's the path to ruin otherwise. There is zero benefit to allowing hostile invaders to live your country, if extreme Salafi Muslims cannot integrate into our countries then they shouldn't be here. Bleeding heart liberals are going to destroy Western civilization with their stupid non-thinking feelgood policies.



Shahunshah
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13 Apr 2017, 9:19 am

Jacoby wrote:
France has a serious issues with immigration, those that don't want to admit that have an agenda of their own. Integration and assimilation aren't happening, youths are growing up in these suburban ghettos becoming more religious and resenting the west. I remember a poll from a few years ago that gauged support for ISIS in France at 16% and 27% with 18-24 which is even higher than the Muslim countries I've seen polled. That's just the general French population, not even just Muslims. Thousands of French Muslims have gone and fought for ISIS too, if these people are EU citizens then they're going to come back.

Assimilation and culture has to taken into account with immigration, it's the path to ruin otherwise. There is zero benefit to allowing hostile invaders to live your country, if extreme Salafi Muslims cannot integrate into our countries then they shouldn't be here. Bleeding heart liberals are going to destroy Western civilization with their stupid non-thinking feelgood policies.

That poll is probably BS. I think their many issues with integration, but I think the reason for a lack of Arab integration lies mostly with an economic climate that wasn't suited for them. That combined with cultural resentment many Muslims have will cause people to lash out.



Jacoby
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13 Apr 2017, 9:40 am

It's not.

http://www.newsweek.com/16-french-citiz ... nds-266795

Economics is part of it; Muslims in the US are on average have a higher percentage of educated professionals and household income than the general population whereas in Europe the immigrants they brought in for cheap labor and other reasons specific to the country like post-colonial France or Germany who is required to take in refugees according to their American written constitution. There are different kinds of immigrants, these are different classes of people even within their home countries.

Immigration needs to take into accord more than just the interests of big business who wants an "elastic" labor supply which is just an excuse to forever keep wages low and to combat any potential collective bargaining by these workers. The idea that people won't do a job is a total lie, people will do jobs if they are paid fairly which is not what these businesses want to do. Restricting immigration would cause wages to rise and less unemployment as business would have to compete for workers, the industries that depend on exploitative cheap and often illegal labor should have their profit margins cut.



Shahunshah
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13 Apr 2017, 9:49 am

Jacoby wrote:
It's not.

http://www.newsweek.com/16-french-citiz ... nds-266795

Economics is part of it; Muslims in the US are on average have a higher percentage of educated professionals and household income than the general population whereas in Europe the immigrants they brought in for cheap labor and other reasons specific to the country like post-colonial France or Germany who is required to take in refugees according to their American written constitution. There are different kinds of immigrants, these are different classes of people even within their home countries.

Immigration needs to take into accord more than just the interests of big business who wants an "elastic" labor supply which is just an excuse to forever keep wages low and to combat any potential collective bargaining by these workers. The idea that people won't do a job is a total lie, people will do jobs if they are paid fairly which is not what these businesses want to do. Restricting immigration would cause wages to rise and less unemployment as business would have to compete for workers, the industries that depend on exploitative cheap and often illegal labor should have their profit margins cut.
And how do you know that those statistics are accurate. They are far to large to be true. And they go against the very values that many Muslims throughout the world are taught which is that terror is a fundamental evil just think about it is what many of the major Islamic scholars say, even in places like Iran acts of terror have seen widespread condemnation. These people have access to and are even bombarded information which enables them to see just how brutal Isis is with their own eyes. I seriously say that I doubt many could subscribe to their ideology after seeing Isis literally butcher Muslims. Keep in mind Muslims in France only account for around 14% of the population.



Jacoby
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13 Apr 2017, 10:15 am

France doesn't keep track of those statistics, there is no way to determine how many Muslims there are in that country. Polls are polls, they have their limitations and you can make them say what you want them to say but I think it's suffice to say that France has a significant problem as evidence from their terror attacks regardless of polls. Those polls were taken several years ago too and a lot has changed, in 2014 ISIS was ascendant and looking like they could take over all of Iraq and spread across the whole of the middle east so I imagine there was somewhat of a bandwagon effect with some of them. Saying that Islam teaches that terror is a "fundamental evil" is irrelevant as there are many different strains of Islam, what matters is what the adherents believe in not what their book says. That are over 50 million Salafi/Wahhabi Muslims, this is the brand of Islam that Saudi Arabia believes in and they fund Wahhabi mosques/madrassas all over the world to spread the ideology.



jrjones9933
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13 Apr 2017, 12:31 pm

Kick all the scientific racists until they learn statistics.


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