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naturalplastic
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23 Apr 2017, 5:05 am

ltcvnzl wrote:
Ignotum wrote:
ltcvnzl wrote:
but isn't this the very definition of terrorism? it is a violence that is symbolic so its impact is overrated, as it spread to other people who wasn't direct affected but can relate to that symbolism.


Hmm, to be honest it seems quite simple upon recollection but I've never really seen it that way. If that's the case, then they are sure as hell doing their job fantastically! Still, the fact that we make such a big deal about it simply shows more about us, and how easily manipulated and irrational the American populace is, then anything.


I think there is something beyond why we fail to recognize what terrorism really is, and why we create such association with terrorism and islamism, and seem blind to a broad definition and understand of reality.

at the end, we face terror from the state too. but in a more subtle, soft-power way.

in my country (brazil), we had two dictatorships that took place playing with the fear of "terror" from certain groups (namely, communists), that was definitely manipulated to be overrated. they both created a department for social order, and it was one of the means to keep them in power... it has such a strong (and random, nobody was really safe. my grandfather was a common guy with no political ties and was tortured upon very vague allegations) power over people's private life it spread a terror wave among people.

there is many cases like this around the world. and I feel that within islamic terrorism we are among two forces that feed themselves.


fear is such a powerful thing.


This.

Yes- thats why they call it "terrorism". It spreads terror. The hysteria and terror advance the cause of the terrorists. But more important that same hysteria in the population can be exploited by the state to crush liberty.



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23 Apr 2017, 9:18 am

The whole point of terrorism is to cause fear and panic. It is even more effective now because not only does everybody freak out, but the media reports the hell out of it. That's why so many are happening nowaways, because the terrorists know that when they do this, they will spread an incredible amount of fear. Isis is such a non threat it is ridiculous. They have no money, they have nothing besides ak-47s and captives. The US could wipe isis and their country out like it is nothing. It just seems like everybody is scared because they want to be scared. We are all fine, WW3 most likely isn't happening for a long while.



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23 Apr 2017, 9:28 am

Ignotum wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Ignotum wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
I don't get the point, are we to tolerate Islamic terrorism because we're more likely to die from something else? It's something that shouldn't exist in the west and it never should be accepted as the new normal.


Now that certainly wasn't my point, I was simply trying to say that it isn't nearly as big of a threat as many people perceive it as. Acts like this should never be interpreted as normal, but it was shocking to me at least how practically nonexistent Islamic terrorism was here in the U.S.. People in Europe, and very especially Muslim bystanders in the Middle East, have far more of a right to worry about terrorism than we do.


Why? In Europe they have their unique issues with Muslim integration but they've never had an attack like 9/11. 3000 people died that day, the world stops when there is an attack and a couple people die but 3000 is something unfathomable. ISIS has no right to exist, they have no right to live, they are the enemy of mankind and deserve nothing short of complete eradication.


9/11 was terrible, but it was a solitary and isolated event, which we'll probably never see the likes of again. And in my personal opinion, 9/11 doesn't truly justify the tens of thousands of muslims killed due to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan (which indirectly caused the rise of ISIS by giving them an enemy to rally against and a weak native government that wouldn't have the means to stop them) as well as the many drone assassinations perpetrated since. At the end of the day, an American citizen isn't all that different from a Muslim one, so certainly you can see why, if not agree, why I view the war on terror as a load of hypocrisy. A group of primarily saudi immigrants commit an act of terror against us, and so we commit even more acts of terror against Iraqis and Afghans? Of course, those wars were mainly fought for reasons other than ideology, but it still bothers me somewhat.


The war on terror is a load of crap because it's not a war we're prepared to win or even are honest with ourselves about who the enemy actually is. I am not a Bush supporter, the invasion of Iraq was a mistake, we shouldn't be overthrowing governments and not expect blowback. More than anybody, the Sunni Arab Gulf is responsible for the current state of the Muslim world, the Saudis are the head of the snake and I would sooner ally with Iran than I would them. It's turned into a real threat, this terrorist ideology has metastasized all across the Muslim world and with the immigrants/refugees from these counties being their prime recruits.

Either we do what it necessary to win and solve the problem or we disengage and isolate that region from the rest of the world until it solves itself. The Islamic State caliphate is a rallying cry to Islamists all around the world, it has to be destroyed because this ideology much like Soviet Communism poses an existential threat not just to the west but primarily the Middle East. What we do does feed the ideology which is why no half way solution will work, more needs to be done to combat this ideology and it's sympathizers not just militants in Syria.



techstepgenr8tion
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23 Apr 2017, 10:16 am

Ignotum wrote:
I see you mentioned Chomsky near the end there, and I will not hesitate to admit that I have spent hours listening to lectures he gave on YouTube! A very reasonable man, and I agree with him on very many things.


He's made great contributions to linguistics and from time to time he still pops out important questions. I have to agree with Christopher Hitchens criticisms of him though - ie. that his favorite go-to for evil in the world turned into a rut that he got stuck in and any other pieces or parts of the problem always fell off the table with him in the overall analysis when compared to the causative power of the evils of western imperialism.

I think it's important to remember that people even three generations ago were socially nothing like us. Even recently I remember watching military shows on the History Channel about WW2 and part of how Japan beat the heck out of us at Pearl Harbor and then with plenty of notice to MacArthur give equally successful attacks in the Philippines. Our leadership was too stunned to believe that anyone other than a white European nation had the genetic capacity of intellect to launch such an attack, not just as a race pride sort of shot or joke - I mean profound lemming-like penetration of that belief. While most people might have been relatively decent on a personal level and figured 'God made the beasts and the children' thus attempting to act accordingly a lot of the imperialism of the European empires was carried out by people who weren't just racist, they were closer to believing that those they were subjugating were closer to higher primates than humans.

That's part of why we're stuck in a quandary where, when the culture is so different now but at the same time we're trying to stop Islamism from destroying both the Middle East and Europe, while we have to pay reflection to WWI and the attempts made to carve up the Middle East into western power-defined segments its also true that our ability to identify with the motives and the outlook on race at the time alienates us from some of the originating attitudes of such motions. Similarly though I don't think we can hide that this has flowed both ways for over 1,000 years and that not only has oil money been a huge agitator for the export of Salafism but that the Sunni vs. Shiite wars have gone one just as long and attempts at caliphate conquest in Europe are also not something that started with western imperialism or even the crusades - it's part of a regional attitude that's inherent to the religious beliefs. That's part of why I have to go more with Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, etc.. on this particular issue than I would Chomsky.


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23 Apr 2017, 10:43 am

ltcvnzl wrote:
but isn't this the very definition of terrorism? it is a violence that is symbolic so its impact is overrated, as it spread to other people who wasn't direct affected but can relate to that symbolism.


You are correct. The worst thing we should do is what America has done, react exactly how they wanted us to react. Leaders should not react emphatically but logically. The leader must look at at as purely numbers meaning he or she should delebritly let innocence die to protect more innocent lives even if those innocent lives are school children bieng held hostage in thier American school. They say we never negotiate with terrorsts but we always do one way or another. Even Israel negotiates the release of hundreds of terrorists for one soildier. We should make it a crime for anybody even a family member to negotiate with a terrorist holding a family member. We should lesson government survalience knowing at least for a time it will result in more and larger terrorism because "The Price of Freedom" should be more than a self satisfying empty slogan. And for goodness sake stop most of the shelter in place and frozen zone stuff. Americans have been trying to make life risk free for decades now but life is like not that. And stop with overdoing this memorial stuff, they are unintentionally enemy victory commarations.


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