Why is there only one begotten son of God? Is he you?

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redrobin62
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15 Jun 2017, 12:09 pm

Ever notice how so-called believers come on forums like these and say, "There is a God because the bible says so, and everything in the bible is true because they are the words of God?" Why they fail to understand the bible are the words of men is a mystery to me. I think, deep down inside, they want to believe it's the word of God. However, wanting something to be true and that thing being true are two different things. I want to believe when I go to the Chinese restaurant there aren't any cockroach wings in the chicken lo mein. Do I know that to be true? If the workers at the Chinese restaurant say there are no cockroach wings in the lo mein, is that true? I suppose I'll just blindly accept it's true; in the end, all I'm doing is hoping it is true because chicken lo mein is so delicious.



Last edited by redrobin62 on 15 Jun 2017, 12:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

GnosticBishop
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15 Jun 2017, 12:11 pm

Knofskia wrote:
I do not think we are garbage; I think we are made perfect but covered in the sin of the world.

I did answer your questions: the answers are in bold with explanations and supporting text in regular font.

Sorry, I cannot view videos.


Now you think spouting dogma is answering questions. Tsk tsk.

I hope you are brighter than that.

You forgot to show what your sin was that was so awful that God condemned you for doing.

Further was it a worse sin than what your God did all the times he killed when he could have cured?

Regards
DL



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15 Jun 2017, 12:19 pm

redrobin62 wrote:
Ever notice how so-called believers come on forums like these and say, "There is a God because the bible says so, and everything in the bible is true because they are the words of God?" Why they fail to understand the bible are the words of men is a mystery to me. I think, deep down inside, they want to believe it's the word of God. However, wanting something to be true and that thing being true are two different things. I want to believe when I go to the Chinese restaurant there aren't any cockroach wings in the chicken lo mein. Do I know that to be true? If the workers at the Chinese restaurant say there are no cockroach wings in the lo mein, is that true? I suppose I'll just blindly accept it's true; in the end, all I'm doing is hoping it is true because chicken lo mein is so delicious.


I hear you.

I begin to think that many so called Christians are atheists as they discredit Christianity with their antics better than anything a real non-believer or atheist could do by arguing against them.

They do my job better with their non-answers than my own arguments do.

You have spotted Knofskia foolish answers and deflections and so have the potential Christians who see such poor apologetics and will get turned off from Christianity.

Regards
DL



Knofskia
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15 Jun 2017, 2:15 pm

GnosticBishop wrote:
Now you think spouting dogma is answering questions. Tsk tsk.

I hope you are brighter than that.

You forgot to show what your sin was that was so awful that God condemned you for doing.

Further was it a worse sin than what your God did all the times he killed when he could have cured?

Regards
DL

Just because a set of principles are laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true, does not mean that they cannot also be individually scrutinized and found to be true. You asked me what I believed. I told you what I have come to believe.

I also told you which sin condemns me and anyone: any sin and every sin. God is perfect; he made us perfect; and he commanded that we live perfect lives. Whenever I do something bad, whenever I fail to do something good, I live imperfectly. This imperfection separates us from God whom is Himself perfect, which is what hell is: a permanent separation from God.

As for my personal sins: I have hated my brother; I have said mean things to my sister; I have failed to take advantage of opportunities to do good things...

And I do not claim to have studied every aspect or come to an understanding of God's plans for each and every one of us. But I have seen good things come out of tragic events before, so I have faith in His perfect plan (much like the pain of a vaccine that protects us more than it hurts us).


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15 Jun 2017, 4:37 pm

Knofskia wrote:
GnosticBishop wrote:
Now you think spouting dogma is answering questions. Tsk tsk.

I hope you are brighter than that.

You forgot to show what your sin was that was so awful that God condemned you for doing.

Further was it a worse sin than what your God did all the times he killed when he could have cured?

Regards
DL

Just because a set of principles are laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true, does not mean that they cannot also be individually scrutinized and found to be true. You asked me what I believed. I told you what I have come to believe.

I also told you which sin condemns me and anyone: any sin and every sin. God is perfect; he made us perfect; and he commanded that we live perfect lives. Whenever I do something bad, whenever I fail to do something good, I live imperfectly. This imperfection separates us from God whom is Himself perfect, which is what hell is: a permanent separation from God.

As for my personal sins: I have hated my brother; I have said mean things to my sister; I have failed to take advantage of opportunities to do good things...

And I do not claim to have studied every aspect or come to an understanding of God's plans for each and every one of us. But I have seen good things come out of tragic events before, so I have faith in His perfect plan (much like the pain of a vaccine that protects us more than it hurts us).


Can you provide any evidence that "principles were laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true"? And please don't reply its in the bible until you prove the bible is incontrovertibly true.



Knofskia
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15 Jun 2017, 5:40 pm

Cash__ wrote:
Knofskia wrote:
GnosticBishop wrote:
Now you think spouting dogma is answering questions. Tsk tsk.

I hope you are brighter than that.

You forgot to show what your sin was that was so awful that God condemned you for doing.

Further was it a worse sin than what your God did all the times he killed when he could have cured?

Regards
DL

Just because a set of principles are laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true, does not mean that they cannot also be individually scrutinized and found to be true. You asked me what I believed. I told you what I have come to believe.

I also told you which sin condemns me and anyone: any sin and every sin. God is perfect; he made us perfect; and he commanded that we live perfect lives. Whenever I do something bad, whenever I fail to do something good, I live imperfectly. This imperfection separates us from God whom is Himself perfect, which is what hell is: a permanent separation from God.

As for my personal sins: I have hated my brother; I have said mean things to my sister; I have failed to take advantage of opportunities to do good things...

And I do not claim to have studied every aspect or come to an understanding of God's plans for each and every one of us. But I have seen good things come out of tragic events before, so I have faith in His perfect plan (much like the pain of a vaccine that protects us more than it hurts us).


Can you provide any evidence that "principles were laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true"? And please don't reply its in the bible until you prove the bible is incontrovertibly true.

I was replying to GnosticBishop's comment when he said that, "Now you think spouting dogma is answering questions."

Dogma is defined as a principle or set of principles that are laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true. So, I was saying that just because religious authorities say something is true without question, does not mean that I did not question it and still agree with those principles. I was saying that I did not just parrot back statements I heard in church; these statements come from 30 years of study and experience.


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15 Jun 2017, 7:11 pm

Knofskia wrote:
GnosticBishop wrote:
Now you think spouting dogma is answering questions. Tsk tsk.

I hope you are brighter than that.

You forgot to show what your sin was that was so awful that God condemned you for doing.

Further was it a worse sin than what your God did all the times he killed when he could have cured?

Regards
DL

Just because a set of principles are laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true, does not mean that they cannot also be individually scrutinized and found to be true. You asked me what I believed. I told you what I have come to believe.

I also told you which sin condemns me and anyone: any sin and every sin. God is perfect; he made us perfect; and he commanded that we live perfect lives. Whenever I do something bad, whenever I fail to do something good, I live imperfectly. This imperfection separates us from God whom is Himself perfect, which is what hell is: a permanent separation from God.

As for my personal sins: I have hated my brother; I have said mean things to my sister; I have failed to take advantage of opportunities to do good things...

And I do not claim to have studied every aspect or come to an understanding of God's plans for each and every one of us. But I have seen good things come out of tragic events before, so I have faith in His perfect plan (much like the pain of a vaccine that protects us more than it hurts us).


Poor child. You think those little sins warent hell and death.

So much for an eye for an eye which is in your scriptures.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.

You have tested your condemnation and hold fast to evil.

Your ---- "he made us perfect; and he commanded that we live perfect lives."

Is a total lie.

Can you be perfect without a moral sense that compares to Gods?

Let me give you another quote to ignore.

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

He created Adam and Eve without one and they, according to Genesis 3, did not develop it till after they ate from the tree of knowledge.

So much for your twisted view of God creating A & E perfect.

You have just swallowed all the B.S. you have been fed and have not even wondered why Christians call Eden where man fell, while the Jews who wrote that myth see Eden as where man was elevated.

No wonder you do not seem to mind following a genocidal son murdering God who is more Satan-like than God-like.

Regards
DL



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15 Jun 2017, 7:20 pm

Knofskia wrote:
[ I was saying that I did not just parrot back statements I heard in church; these statements come from 30 years of study and experience.


Let me study your experience in a P.S. on what I put above on Eden.

You might have heard the Exultet hymn that calls Adam's sin a happy fault and necessary sin.

Do you see Eden as man's elevation or fall?

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DL



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16 Jun 2017, 12:12 pm

GnosticBishop wrote:
So much for an eye for an eye which is in your scriptures.

Those words are mentioned twice in scriptures to teach two very different things: once in the old testament, to teach government to punish evil doers justly, not too leniently and not too harshly; once in the new testament, to teach people in their interpersonal interactions NOT to seek retribution but to forgive, love, and pray for your enemy. It was never meant literally as a legal code or as a universal moral code itself, but as a lesson.
Quote:
In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus counters the common teaching of personal retaliation: “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you . . .” (Matthew 5:38–39). Jesus then proceeds to reveal God’s heart concerning interpersonal relationships: “Do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you” (Matthew 5:39–42).

GnosticBishop wrote:
1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.

You have tested your condemnation and hold fast to evil.

I hold fast to the fact that I do sin and I need a Savior. I hold fast to the fact that God already saved me and I want to show my thanks by showing that love to all others.
GnosticBishop wrote:
Your ---- "he made us perfect; and he commanded that we live perfect lives."

Is a total lie.

Can you be perfect without a moral sense that compares to Gods?

Let me give you another quote to ignore.

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

He created Adam and Eve without one and they, according to Genesis 3, did not develop it till after they ate from the tree of knowledge.

So much for your twisted view of God creating A & E perfect.

Man was created perfect, that is, without flaw or sin. Man was created with the ability to be tempted and to sin, which was not a flaw because without that, he would not be able to show love and obedience to God by not sinning. Man, eating of the tree of knowledge, may have grown mentally, but we fell morally.

The words of Matthew 5:48 were spoken by Jesus to teach us not to live by man's morals, which say to love your neighbor (friend) and hate your enemy, but to live by God's morals, which say to love your enemy and pray for those who persecute you.


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Knofskia
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16 Jun 2017, 12:27 pm

GnosticBishop wrote:
You might have heard the Exultet hymn that calls Adam's sin a happy fault and necessary sin.

Do you see Eden as man's elevation or fall?

I see Eden as man's fall and God's elevation. It is only because of sin that we need a Savior. It is only because of Christ that we know God's unconditional love for us.
Quote:
It's only because of Christ that we know just how much God does not desire the death of the sinner, but rather that they be converted and live (Ezekiel 18:23).

Once Christ became fully human, was tempted but did not sin, died for sin, and rose from the dead, THEN we were elevated with Him.


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16 Jun 2017, 1:32 pm

Knofskia wrote:
GnosticBishop wrote:
You might have heard the Exultet hymn that calls Adam's sin a happy fault and necessary sin.

Do you see Eden as man's elevation or fall?

I see Eden as man's fall and God's elevation.


Gen 3 22 And the LORD God said: 'Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil;

That means that they developed a moral sense comparable to God's.

And you see that as our fall because you refuse to read what is said or even think about it.

You ignore that Genesis is a Jewish myth and that their understanding of their myth trumps the Christian understanding.

http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2013/10/ ... -theodicy/

"Instead of the Fall of man (in the sense of humanity as a whole), Judaism preaches the Rise of man: and instead of Original Sin, it stresses Original Virtue, the beneficent hereditary influence of righteous ancestors upon their descendants"

It seems that you are only interested in spouting your dogma, that has created an intolerant, homophobic and misogynous religion and you have embraced genocidal God.

Best to ignore me as my focus is morality and your morality is quite satanic.

Regards
DL



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16 Jun 2017, 2:16 pm

GnosticBishop wrote:
Gen 3 22 And the LORD God said: 'Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil;

That means that they developed a moral sense comparable to God's.

They had more knowledge of good and evil; that does not make them more moral. Morality is doing good, not just knowing what is good.
GnosticBishop wrote:
You ignore that Genesis is a Jewish myth and that their understanding of their myth trumps the Christian understanding.

http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2013/10/ ... -theodicy/

"Instead of the Fall of man (in the sense of humanity as a whole), Judaism preaches the Rise of man: and instead of Original Sin, it stresses Original Virtue, the beneficent hereditary influence of righteous ancestors upon their descendants"

Did you ignore the fact that Jesus and his disciples who wrote the new testament were Jewish? It was their own religion that they were continuing to build on as God completed His work. They did not steal it from anyone.
GnosticBishop wrote:
And you see that as our fall because you refuse to read what is said or even think about it...

...It seems that you are only interested in spouting your dogma, that has created an intolerant, homophobic and misogynous religion and you have embraced genocidal God.

Best to ignore me as my focus is morality and your morality is quite satanic.

I have read the Bible, studied it for 30 years, and thought about it, but I disagree with your interpretation. I am not "spouting anyone's dogma", only explaining my understanding. The Bible does not teach intolerance, homophobia, or misogyny; unfortunately, some people have interpreted that.

I wish that you would stop attacking me like this, instead of discussing the topic.


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17 Jun 2017, 9:45 am

Knofskia wrote:
GnosticBishop wrote:
Gen 3 22 And the LORD God said: 'Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil;

That means that they developed a moral sense comparable to God's.

They had more knowledge of good and evil; that does not make them more moral. Morality is doing good, not just knowing what is good.


I agree. You might have noted that the God you follow kills when he could just as easily cure and that is quite evil.

Or do you think killing is better than curing when both options are available to your God?

You said you wanted a discussion. Let us discus that question.

BTW, Jesus never wrote anything.

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DL



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17 Jun 2017, 2:26 pm

GnosticBishop, I am going to have to apologize to you and anyone else who is following this discussion.

1. I know the importance of punctuation, but I still forgot two commas in my last post; it should have read: "...that Jesus, and his disciples who wrote the new testament, were Jewish?"
2. After a long and stressful social engagement yesterday, I am too exhausted to reply as fully as needed to answer your question myself. So, I will have to just be content to copy someone else's answer for now (I have reviewed it and agree with it (summary: killing for personal vengeance is not the same as judicial punishment which is not the same as God's judgment)):

Quote:
Question: "Does God killing people make Him a murderer?"

Answer:
 The Old Testament records God killing multitudes of people, and some people want to believe this makes Him a murderer. The misconception that “killing” and “murder” are synonymous is partially based on the King James mistranslation of the sixth commandment, which reads, “Thou shalt not kill” (Exodus 20:13). However, the word kill is a translation of the Hebrew word ratsach, which nearly always refers to intentional killing without cause. The correct rendering of this word is “murder,” and all modern translations render the command as “You shall not murder.” The Bible in Basic English best conveys its meaning: “Do not put anyone to death without cause.”

It is true that God has intentionally killed many people. (God never “accidentally” does anything.) In fact, the Bible records that He literally wiped out entire nations including women, children, cattle, etc. In addition to that, God killed every living creature upon the face of the earth with the exception of eight people and the animals on the ark (Genesis 7:21-23; 1 Peter 3:20). Does this make Him a murderer?

As already stated, to kill and to murder are different things. Murder is “the premeditated, unlawful taking of a life,” whereas killing is, more generally, “the taking of a life.” The same Law that forbids murder permits killing in self-defense (Exodus 22:2).

In order for God to commit murder, He would have to act “unlawfully.” We must recognize that God is God. “His works are perfect, and all His ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is He” (Deuteronomy 32:4; see also Psalm 11:7; 90:9). He created man and expects obedience (Exodus 20:4-6; Exodus 23:21; 2 John 1:6). When man takes it upon himself to disobey God, he faces God’s wrath (Exodus 19:5; Exodus 23:21-22; Leviticus 26:14-18). Furthermore, “God is a just judge, and God is angry with the wicked every day. If [man] does not turn back, He will sharpen His sword; He bends His bow and makes it ready” (Psalm 7:11-12).

Some would argue that executing the innocent is murder; thus, when God wipes out whole cities, He is committing murder. However, nowhere in Scripture can we find where God killed “innocent” people. In fact, compared to God’s holiness, there is no such thing as an “innocent” person. All have sinned (Romans 3:23), and the penalty for sin is death (Romans 6:23a). God has “just cause” to wipe us all out; the fact that He doesn’t is proof of His mercy.

When God chose to destroy all mankind in the Flood, He was totally justified in doing so: “Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually” (Genesis 6:5).

During the conquest of Canaan, God ordered the complete destruction of entire cities and nations: “But of the cities of these peoples which the LORD your God gives you as an inheritance, you shall let nothing that breathes remain alive, but you shall utterly destroy them: the Hittite and the Amorite and the Canaanite and the Perizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite, just as the LORD your God has commanded you” (Deuteronomy 20:16-17). And Joshua did what God had told him (Joshua 10:40).

Why did God give such a command? Israel was God’s instrument of judgment against the Canaanites, who were evil, almost beyond what we can imagine today: “Every abomination to the LORD which He hates they have done to their gods; for they burn even their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods” (Deuteronomy 12:31). Their utter annihilation was commanded to prevent Israel from following their ways: “Lest they teach you to do according to all their abominations which they have done for their gods, and you sin against the LORD your God” (Deuteronomy 20:18; also Deuteronomy 12:29-30).

Even in the dire judgments of the Old Testament, God offered mercy. For example, when God was about to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah, God promised Abraham that He would spare the whole city in order to save ten righteous people there. Though God did destroy those cities (ten righteous people could not be found), He saved “righteous Lot” and his family (Genesis 18:32; Genesis 19:15; 2 Peter 2:7). Later, God destroyed Jericho, but He saved Rahab the harlot and her family in response to Rahab’s faith (Joshua 6:25; Hebrews 11:31). Until the final judgment, there is always mercy to be found.

Every person dies in God’s own time (Hebrews 9:27; Genesis 3:19). Jesus holds the keys of death (Revelation 1:18). Does the fact that everyone experiences physical death make God a “killer”? In the sense that He could prevent all death, yes. He allows us to die. But He is no murderer. Death is part of the human experience because we brought it into the world ourselves (Romans 5:12). One day, as John Donne put it, “Death shall be no more; death, thou shalt die.” God, in His grace, has conquered death for those who are in Christ, and one day that truth will be fully realized: “The last enemy to be subdued and abolished is death” (1 Corinthians 15:26).

God is faithful to His word. He will destroy the wicked, and He holds “the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment” (2 Peter 2:9). But He has also promised that “the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 6:23b).


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17 Jun 2017, 3:06 pm

Your own religions says that you cannot know God's judgement, as he is unknowable and unfathomable.

Your priests and preachers say that just before they begin to tell you the lies about a God they say they cannot known.

And you swallow their lies about talking serpents and donkeys and make one out of yourself.

That is what you deserve for following a genocidal God who kills instead of cures.

If your doctor had the same mindset, you would look for a moral doctor who cured instead of killed.

Why are you not looking for a moral God and settling for a genocidal son murderer?

Regards
DL



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17 Jun 2017, 3:53 pm

GnosticBishop wrote:
Your own religions says that you cannot know God's judgement, as he is unknowable and unfathomable.

Your priests and preachers say that just before they begin to tell you the lies about a God they say they cannot known.

And you swallow their lies about talking serpents and donkeys and make one out of yourself.

That is what you deserve for following a genocidal God who kills instead of cures.

If your doctor had the same mindset, you would look for a moral doctor who cured instead of killed.

Why are you not looking for a moral God and settling for a genocidal son murderer?

Regards
DL

I will leave you with another article, about understanding God: Leaning on Our Own Understanding.

I answered the other questions already and asked you to please stop attacking me personally.

I am just informing you that I will no longer be engaging in this thread. Please have a nice day.


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