Should we have concern about the welfare of strangers? Why?

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kraftiekortie
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06 Jul 2017, 12:14 pm

I really don't believe much in Ayn Rand's notion of "enlightened self-interest."



Kraichgauer
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06 Jul 2017, 1:01 pm

adifferentname wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
adifferentname wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Because Christ said, "When you had done these things for the least, you have done them for me."
For those who insist on calling us a Christian country, who more often than not are conservatives and libertarians, they have to be willing to live by Christ's call to care for the stranger, and for the least among us. And that means Ayn Rand, with all her sociopathic talk about the virtue of selfishness, has to be tossed into the dustbin of history.


In a single sentence, describe what Rand means by "selfishness". I suspect you're conflating her narrow definition with the common one.


Selfishness is selfishness.


And ignorance is ignorance.


Then enlighten me. How is that old harpy's definition of selfishness different from the common definition?!?!


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06 Jul 2017, 6:48 pm

I would think it would be especially bad for us (autistics) if people didn't care about the welfare of strangers, because the NTs would cope better with their friends and social alliances than we would without them (on average.) We are strangers to more people than they are.



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06 Jul 2017, 6:59 pm

adifferentname wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Because Christ said, "When you had done these things for the least, you have done them for me."
For those who insist on calling us a Christian country, who more often than not are conservatives and libertarians, they have to be willing to live by Christ's call to care for the stranger, and for the least among us. And that means Ayn Rand, with all her sociopathic talk about the virtue of selfishness, has to be tossed into the dustbin of history.


In a single sentence, describe what Rand means by "selfishness". I suspect you're conflating her narrow definition with the common one.


Rand's "selfishness" was rather odd.

Apparently, if the government gives out free healthcare, you can't take it because that "isn't real selfishness" ... or something.

According to Objectivism, a poor worker should support unregulated capitalism ... because putting yourself in danger is selfishness apparently.

Fans of Rand will try to hold her up using Horatio Alger Mythology. Of course, it's called "The American Dream" for a reason. You have to be asleep to believe in it.


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kraftiekortie
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06 Jul 2017, 7:01 pm

It's a mythology, this Horatio Alger thing----but it's an inspiring mythology.



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06 Jul 2017, 7:22 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
It's a mythology, this Horatio Alger thing----but it's an inspiring mythology.

Mythology makes you feel good ... at first.

... then you drink the Kool-Aid and/or permanently mutilate your genitals.

If you just need to feel good, then think happy thoughts. Use your imagination. Escape.

Religious nuts hate imagination because it allows people to be happy without religion. That's the real reason why the fundies lashed out Dungeons and Dragons during the 1980s. All that stuff about "Satanic ritual abuse" was completely fabricated. It never happened.


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06 Jul 2017, 7:35 pm

For the record, I don't think that we should start telling billionaires "You need to be more generous!" They know what they are and they don't care. They are filth. They treat us like cattle and they enjoy every second of it. They are beyond "saving".

Instead, we need grassroots action. Look for videos of Noam Chomsky on YouTube. Share them with as many people as possible. That's Phase One. Once we've done that, we shall take back the Democratic Party with the help of Bernie Sanders and the Justice Democrats.

It's time for the Democratic Party to live up to its name for once. We will never be truly democratic as long as the wealthy can buy extra political influence. They will do this as long as they can do this.

The wealthy no longer need to control us with whips because they have a propaganda machine instead. When you control the mass media, you can brainwash everyone, create confusion, and invent a fake conflict between organizations that have actually been in cahoots this entire time. That's why I only trust news outlets that are crowdfunded.

It's time to break through the propaganda machine and take the American government back. Once America is transformed, the other Western powers will fall like dominoes.


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06 Jul 2017, 8:11 pm

There are always going to be people who for whatever reason cannot function successfully in society. They cannot be elevated, they must be managed. I don't want to see these people starving on the street, it brings everybody down, so for the benefit of society, it is necessary to support them.



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06 Jul 2017, 8:15 pm

DarthMetaKnight wrote:
For the record, I don't think that we should start telling billionaires "You need to be more generous!" They know what they are and they don't care. They are filth. They treat us like cattle and they enjoy every second of it. They are beyond "saving".

Instead, we need grassroots action. Look for videos of Noam Chomsky on YouTube. Share them with as many people as possible. That's Phase One. Once we've done that, we shall take back the Democratic Party with the help of Bernie Sanders and the Justice Democrats.

It's time for the Democratic Party to live up to its name for once. We will never be truly democratic as long as the wealthy can buy extra political influence. They will do this as long as they can do this.

The wealthy no longer need to control us with whips because they have a propaganda machine instead. When you control the mass media, you can brainwash everyone, create confusion, and invent a fake conflict between organizations that have actually been in cahoots this entire time. That's why I only trust news outlets that are crowdfunded.

It's time to break through the propaganda machine and take the American government back. Once America is transformed, the other Western powers will fall like dominoes.


You are not the only one who thinks like this.



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06 Jul 2017, 8:23 pm

ZachGoodwin wrote:
DarthMetaKnight wrote:
For the record, I don't think that we should start telling billionaires "You need to be more generous!" They know what they are and they don't care. They are filth. They treat us like cattle and they enjoy every second of it. They are beyond "saving".

Instead, we need grassroots action. Look for videos of Noam Chomsky on YouTube. Share them with as many people as possible. That's Phase One. Once we've done that, we shall take back the Democratic Party with the help of Bernie Sanders and the Justice Democrats.

It's time for the Democratic Party to live up to its name for once. We will never be truly democratic as long as the wealthy can buy extra political influence. They will do this as long as they can do this.

The wealthy no longer need to control us with whips because they have a propaganda machine instead. When you control the mass media, you can brainwash everyone, create confusion, and invent a fake conflict between organizations that have actually been in cahoots this entire time. That's why I only trust news outlets that are crowdfunded.

It's time to break through the propaganda machine and take the American government back. Once America is transformed, the other Western powers will fall like dominoes.


You are not the only one who thinks like this.


I know. There are plenty of other people who follow the wisdom of good Mr. Chomsky.
That's one of the most awesome things about real life.


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06 Jul 2017, 9:37 pm

For the vast majority they've been programmed over millions of years to have empathy, a necessity of pack animals. A pack is a small power structure, usually less than 20 animals, if just one passes or leaves that's a large chunk of production eliminated for the pack. Pack animals tend to take care of each other because each member of the pack is valuable to the whole-- the pack can't lose too many pieces at once and still survive. This is why researchers have noted that when two small packs of wolves interact it usually doesn't lead to warfare but mutualism (they'll combine packs to boost the harvest as a whole as opposed to fight for the resources and possibly lose members or perhaps even the prey).

That said, we're no longer pack animals, society is a hive game and hive rules come into play. A hive produces more members than it actually needs, assuming it will lose a fair amount. Hive creatures generally don't have empathy, there's no need since individuals in the hive are easily replaceable and not that valuable to the whole on their own. A member in a hive is expendable, something a pack can't afford.

Humans are pack animals living in a hive. For the most part empathy will be taken advantage of by the hive, used as a free resource to manipulate labor, but it will never reciprocate since it doesn't need to. So should we have concern for the welfare of strangers? Every pack instinct in my body screams yes but my brain knows we're not in a pack, rather a hive and the hive views any compassion as a weakness to exploit, thus my brain says no.



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06 Jul 2017, 10:11 pm

Like naked mole rats?


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06 Jul 2017, 11:07 pm

Aristophanes wrote:
For the vast majority they've been programmed over millions of years to have empathy, a necessity of pack animals. A pack is a small power structure, usually less than 20 animals, if just one passes or leaves that's a large chunk of production eliminated for the pack. Pack animals tend to take care of each other because each member of the pack is valuable to the whole-- the pack can't lose too many pieces at once and still survive. This is why researchers have noted that when two small packs of wolves interact it usually doesn't lead to warfare but mutualism (they'll combine packs to boost the harvest as a whole as opposed to fight for the resources and possibly lose members or perhaps even the prey).

That said, we're no longer pack animals, society is a hive game and hive rules come into play. A hive produces more members than it actually needs, assuming it will lose a fair amount. Hive creatures generally don't have empathy, there's no need since individuals in the hive are easily replaceable and not that valuable to the whole on their own. A member in a hive is expendable, something a pack can't afford.

Humans are pack animals living in a hive. For the most part empathy will be taken advantage of by the hive, used as a free resource to manipulate labor, but it will never reciprocate since it doesn't need to. So should we have concern for the welfare of strangers? Every pack instinct in my body screams yes but my brain knows we're not in a pack, rather a hive and the hive views any compassion as a weakness to exploit, thus my brain says no.

Human society may now be on the scale of hives, but it still don't work the same way. Humans are not like bees or ants in which all individuals of a hive share the exact same genetic, but a specie in which each individuals are different and thus some peoples can rise from poverty, sometime thanks to public education and welfare, to give great contribution to society.

Also, there is a specie of ant in Amazonia in which a large part of individuals in a colony do nothing only to be feed by the working ants: it may be that in case of the colony population and structure collapsing then the non-working individuals can then become workers and rebuild the colony. Some "spare ants" if you will. Thus having a non-working non-specialised population may help a society resilience.


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06 Jul 2017, 11:26 pm

jrjones9933 wrote:
Like naked mole rats?

They are not to be underestimated. :wink:
https://kissanime.io/Anime/Shinsekai-Yori.79424/Episode-021?id=23566


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07 Jul 2017, 12:06 am

Tollorin wrote:
Aristophanes wrote:
For the vast majority they've been programmed over millions of years to have empathy, a necessity of pack animals. A pack is a small power structure, usually less than 20 animals, if just one passes or leaves that's a large chunk of production eliminated for the pack. Pack animals tend to take care of each other because each member of the pack is valuable to the whole-- the pack can't lose too many pieces at once and still survive. This is why researchers have noted that when two small packs of wolves interact it usually doesn't lead to warfare but mutualism (they'll combine packs to boost the harvest as a whole as opposed to fight for the resources and possibly lose members or perhaps even the prey).

That said, we're no longer pack animals, society is a hive game and hive rules come into play. A hive produces more members than it actually needs, assuming it will lose a fair amount. Hive creatures generally don't have empathy, there's no need since individuals in the hive are easily replaceable and not that valuable to the whole on their own. A member in a hive is expendable, something a pack can't afford.

Humans are pack animals living in a hive. For the most part empathy will be taken advantage of by the hive, used as a free resource to manipulate labor, but it will never reciprocate since it doesn't need to. So should we have concern for the welfare of strangers? Every pack instinct in my body screams yes but my brain knows we're not in a pack, rather a hive and the hive views any compassion as a weakness to exploit, thus my brain says no.

Human society may now be on the scale of hives, but it still don't work the same way. Humans are not like bees or ants in which all individuals of a hive share the exact same genetic, but a specie in which each individuals are different and thus some peoples can rise from poverty, sometime thanks to public education and welfare, to give great contribution to society.

Also, there is a specie of ant in Amazonia in which a large part of individuals in a colony do nothing only to be feed by the working ants: it may be that in case of the colony population and structure collapsing then the non-working individuals can then become workers and rebuild the colony. Some "spare ants" if you will. Thus having a non-working non-specialised population may help a society resilience.


Packs, herds, and hives are social structures, not biological entities. While mammals tend to be herd/pack, arthropods hive, and reptiles solitary, there's no evidence that those biological forms create said social structure, rather I would posit the social structure existed first and the biological adaptations to the structure came second. Examples I would posit include: most arthropods (by biomass) are non social (there are no hive based arthropods in the sea that I know of), Hadrosaurs (Late Cretaceous herbivore dinosaurs) roamed in packs as evidenced by fossilized tracks and well humans are now transitioning into a hive structure, completely bypassing herd size. My point being: the social structure is dictated by the size of the population and the resources it can harvest, not by the biological adaptations of the species itself. Leading or controlling 7 people is different than leading 700, which is completely different than 7 billion, each size increase requires a different control structure to be successful.



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07 Jul 2017, 2:47 am

Kraichgauer wrote:

Then enlighten me. How is that old harpy's definition of selfishness different from the common definition?!?!


Selfishness in the common vernacular is "devoted to one's own welfare to the exclusion of regard for others". It describes a perceived moral failing.

Rand was using the less common variant of selfishness "pertaining to or connected with oneself" or as she puts it "concern with one's own interests".

And don't make the mistake of assuming I have sympathy with Rand's philosophy of virtuous selfishness. It's based on a flawed premise and inherently self-defeating, but I'd describe her arguments as self-delusional rather than sociopathic.