Board index › Topical Discussion › Politics, Philosophy, and Religion

Democracy and liberty

Page 3 of 10 [ 150 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 ... 10  Next

Previous topic | Next topic

Daniel89
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 5 Oct 2017
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,592

04 Apr 2018, 12:46 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
Daniel89 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:

I suppose because attacks on Jews is based on Anti Semitic hysteria, whereas the 1% are indeed the authors of our pain.


How so? And which one percent? The global one percent of earners who earn over $35k? Or the US one where they earn $500K? How is Bill Gates the author of your pain?


That would be an exceptional argument if the 1% consisted of just Bill Gates. But it doesn't. There are far more like the Koch brothers (not including the gay Koch brother involved in the arts) who pour money into elections to change the economic landscape in order for themselves and their class to benefit at the rest of our expense.


The 1% isn't just the Koch brothers though is it. Globally its 75 million people within the US its 3 million. When you blame the 1% you are blaming someone simply for having more money than you.

Here in the UK the richest in our society overwhelmingly come from the Aristocracy they are rich because their ancestors stole from us and oppressed us for centuries. These people are absolutely to blame for many problems within the UK. Wayne Rooney however is a working class footballer who through meritocracy happens to be worth millions he is in no way to blame for poverty.



Daniel89
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 5 Oct 2017
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,592

04 Apr 2018, 12:51 am

Aristophanes wrote:
Daniel89 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:

I suppose because attacks on Jews is based on Anti Semitic hysteria, whereas the 1% are indeed the authors of our pain.


How so? And which one percent? The global one percent of earners who earn over $35k? Or the US one where they earn $500K? How is Bill Gates the author of your pain?


Speaking as an American about the American system:

There's nothing wrong with being wealthy or part of the 1%, the problem is that that 1% are growing wealth at a far faster rate than the bottom 99%. Wealth equals power, what that means is that they're growing more and more power and you and I are getting less and less power. That's the problem because eventually that power dynamic will create an oligarchy (one could claim we're already there seeing as how 70% of political contributions come from that class). Most oligarchies are short lived and tend to leave their nations in shambles (all while the oligarchy members move to another nation with their wealth intact). Read up on ancient Corinth for more information on how an oligarchy operates-- it's a political virus.


There are a few reasons the rich are becoming richer.

The increase in workers and consumers, this benefits capital. Coca-cola runs the same business model now but has an increasing consumer base which means increasing profits. More workers means more competition for jobs which means lower wages.

Then there is also increasing material wealth. We have all this new technology increasing the quality of our lives that we choose to buy. Previous generations were more equal but their quality of life was lower.



Kraichgauer
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 49,751
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.

04 Apr 2018, 12:55 am

Daniel89 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Daniel89 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:

I suppose because attacks on Jews is based on Anti Semitic hysteria, whereas the 1% are indeed the authors of our pain.


How so? And which one percent? The global one percent of earners who earn over $35k? Or the US one where they earn $500K? How is Bill Gates the author of your pain?


That would be an exceptional argument if the 1% consisted of just Bill Gates. But it doesn't. There are far more like the Koch brothers (not including the gay Koch brother involved in the arts) who pour money into elections to change the economic landscape in order for themselves and their class to benefit at the rest of our expense.


The 1% isn't just the Koch brothers though is it. Globally its 75 million people within the US its 3 million. When you blame the 1% you are blaming someone simply for having more money than you.

Here in the UK the richest in our society overwhelmingly come from the Aristocracy they are rich because their ancestors stole from us and oppressed us for centuries. These people are absolutely to blame for many problems within the UK. Wayne Rooney however is a working class footballer who through meritocracy happens to be worth millions he is in no way to blame for poverty.


No, they aren't just the Koch brothers. Many of them are pretty bad in their own right, like Sheldon Adelson, the casino magnate. Then there are others like Bill Gates who actually use their money to help people. Unfortunately, the political machinations done by the likes of the Kochs and Adelson in the run long does more harm than the humanitarian done by good rich people like Gates.
Wayne Rooney might still be a working class guy in the UK, but here in America his millions would make him part of the upper crust.


_________________
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Daniel89
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 5 Oct 2017
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,592

04 Apr 2018, 1:10 am

Kraichgauer wrote:

No, they aren't just the Koch brothers. Many of them are pretty bad in their own right, like Sheldon Adelson, the casino magnate. Then there are others like Bill Gates who actually use their money to help people. Unfortunately, the political machinations done by the likes of the Kochs and Adelson in the run long does more harm than the humanitarian done by good rich people like Gates.
Wayne Rooney might still be a working class guy in the UK, but here in America his millions would make him part of the upper crust.


Again you are just naming another billionaire. There are a few thousand billionaires there are millions of people in the one percent who are not billionaires. I don't know specifically what the Koch's or Adelson have done wrong but if they are getting corporate welfare or damaging the environment then that in itself is a problem, just them merely being wealthy is not.



Kraichgauer
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 49,751
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.

04 Apr 2018, 1:28 am

Daniel89 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:

No, they aren't just the Koch brothers. Many of them are pretty bad in their own right, like Sheldon Adelson, the casino magnate. Then there are others like Bill Gates who actually use their money to help people. Unfortunately, the political machinations done by the likes of the Kochs and Adelson in the run long does more harm than the humanitarian done by good rich people like Gates.
Wayne Rooney might still be a working class guy in the UK, but here in America his millions would make him part of the upper crust.


Again you are just naming another billionaire. There are a few thousand billionaires there are millions of people in the one percent who are not billionaires. I don't know specifically what the Koch's or Adelson have done wrong but if they are getting corporate welfare or damaging the environment then that in itself is a problem, just them merely being wealthy is not.


Of course they're not bad just for being rich. They have used their money in the political system to roll back environmental and workplace safety regulations, opposing gay rights, voter suppression, etc.
I don't care if these are billionaires or millionaires, I resent that they have an edge over the rest of us - their money, and with it the power that comes with it - to change government at our expense.


_________________
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Sweetleaf
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Jan 2011
Age: 36
Gender: Female
Posts: 35,278
Location: Somewhere in Colorado

04 Apr 2018, 1:31 am

Daniel89 wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Daniel89 wrote:
This idea that "the 1%" cause all the problems is silly. Its not the fault of high earners that people choose to have children they cannot afford, its not their fault that these people fail to raise their children correctly either.


They don't cause all the problems, but yes a society in which a very small percentage of the population controls most of the wealth in the country it becomes problematic as it increases poverty and also causes dis-balances of power. If you think the sole cause of poverty is 'people having kids they can't afford and parents failing to raise their children correctly then you're just as ignorant as anyone who blames all the problems solely on the 1%.

Also though a lot of people have kids when they are in a position to afford it, and then things decline. And what would you say is the cut off for being unable to afford kids, like how much should people be making to be allowed to have kids? Of course it is easy to blame the poor for being poor...but we're at a point where people working full time jobs aren't making a living wage while CEOs of companies employing these people just get richer and richer. And you want to tell me the problem is simply lower income and poor people having kids?


I don't think people having children they cannot afford causes all poverty just the majority of it. How exactly does one person having more money than another cause poverty?

At the end of the day it is the parents decision to have children and their responsibility to take care of them not someone else's simply because they are rich.


Its not one person having more money than another person, it is 1% of the population having most of countries over-all wealth. Thus they get all the benefits of any economic prosperity while everyone else gets scraps in a manner of speaking.

Also no one is talking about rich people taking care of peoples kids for them, just paying a fair tax rate like the rest of us so that there are funds for infrastructure and social programs that help the impoverished. Also what are parents to do if they are working as much as they can and their wealthier employer is not paying them a living wage which is the situation for a lot of people?

But all Trump does is give huge corporations tax break after tax break, how does that help the general public?


_________________
Tis the time to melt the Ice.


Last edited by Sweetleaf on 04 Apr 2018, 1:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

Daniel89
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 5 Oct 2017
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,592

04 Apr 2018, 1:34 am

Kraichgauer wrote:

Of course they're not bad just for being rich. They have used their money in the political system to roll back environmental and workplace safety regulations, opposing gay rights, voter suppression, etc.
I don't care if these are billionaires or millionaires, I resent that they have an edge over the rest of us - their money, and with it the power that comes with it - to change government at our expense.


I think the vast majority of people would agree with that. The problem is corruption not wealth.



Sweetleaf
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Jan 2011
Age: 36
Gender: Female
Posts: 35,278
Location: Somewhere in Colorado

04 Apr 2018, 1:36 am

Daniel89 wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Daniel89 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Our constitution in fact ensures that the dictatorship of the majority doesn't quash dissenting minority voices. True, it hasn't always worked, but putting it into practice is a continuing process.


Yeah that is true here in the UK we don't have a constitution so our politicians can do want they want basically. They have taken away our rights to free speech, changed the demographics of our nation without consulting the public and taken away our privacy. We are ran by a political monopoly of two parties who mostly come from connected wealthy backgrounds.


So would you say maybe some of these 'wealthy' have a little bit too much sway in your government? Or if poor people stopped having kids would that fix it?


The upper classes do have far too much sway in our political system however we do not have poverty in the UK and the upper classes support breeding an underclass dependant upon government because it allows them to expand the power of government thus increasing their power.


I am pretty sure there is poverty in the U.K.


_________________
Tis the time to melt the Ice.


Daniel89
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 5 Oct 2017
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,592

04 Apr 2018, 1:38 am

Sweetleaf wrote:

Its not one person having more money than another person, it is 1% of the population having most of countries over-all wealth. Thus they get all the benefits of any economic prosperity while everyone else gets scraps in a manner of speaking.

Also no one is talking about rich people taking care of peoples kids for them, just paying a fair tax rate like the rest of us so that there are funds for infrastructure and social programs that help the impoverished. Also what are parents to do if they are working as much as they can and their wealthier employer is not paying them a living wage which is the situation for a lot of people?


The rich paying taxes to pay for other peoples kids is them taking care of other peoples kids. What exactly is a living wage? If you are worth more than you are being paid then you can find another job where they will pay you what you are worth.



Kraichgauer
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 49,751
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.

04 Apr 2018, 1:40 am

Daniel89 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:

Of course they're not bad just for being rich. They have used their money in the political system to roll back environmental and workplace safety regulations, opposing gay rights, voter suppression, etc.
I don't care if these are billionaires or millionaires, I resent that they have an edge over the rest of us - their money, and with it the power that comes with it - to change government at our expense.


I think the vast majority of people would agree with that. The problem is corruption not wealth.


More often than not, corruption is money's secret partner.


_________________
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Daniel89
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 5 Oct 2017
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,592

04 Apr 2018, 1:42 am

Sweetleaf wrote:

I am pretty sure there is poverty in the U.K.


There are a few homeless people yes but not many. We have relative poverty which is not real poverty. I have lived the majority of my life in "relative poverty" I would never be so arrogant as to call that actual poverty. I have lived below the international poverty line of less than $2 for a few months that was real poverty. Now I have food, electricity and the internet I am not in poverty.



sly279
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Dec 2013
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 16,181
Location: US

04 Apr 2018, 1:43 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
sly279 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Daniel89 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:

I suppose because attacks on Jews is based on Anti Semitic hysteria, whereas the 1% are indeed the authors of our pain.


How so? And which one percent? The global one percent of earners who earn over $35k? Or the US one where they earn $500K? How is Bill Gates the author of your pain?


That would be an exceptional argument if the 1% consisted of just Bill Gates. But it doesn't. There are far more like the Koch brothers (not including the gay Koch brother involved in the arts) who pour money into elections to change the economic landscape in order for themselves and their class to benefit at the rest of our expense.

Don’t forget Bloomberg and soros.


If I recall correctly, Bloomberg is a Republican posing as a Democrat - the mirror image of Trump.
As for Soros - - I believe he's done nothing but champion liberal causes, such as defending the voiceless who would otherwise go unheard, rather than rolling over the said voiceless as the Kochs have done. The George Soros the right constantly screams about is a bogeyman of their own invention. You'd think Soros was really Ernst Stavro Blofeld, petting his furry white cat as he plots world domination from listening to Fox and Breitbart.


Sorry you think the rich billion from new York who’s friends with most democrats and spending billions pushing liberal ideas is a republican?
Perphas your thinking of the mayor during 9/11. That’s not Bloomberg, he’s the one who pushes gun control, banning soda, banning fast food, supporting illegal immigration. He’s giving large sums to any and all democrats running for office, he’s as far left as you can go.

Both Soros and Bloomberg are all about rolling over the 100 million Americans who voices go unheard.



Daniel89
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 5 Oct 2017
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,592

04 Apr 2018, 1:44 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
More often than not, corruption is money's secret partner.


Yes but when people go after the money and not the corruption you end up with system like Venezuela and Soviet Russia. More Corruption and less money for everyone.



Sweetleaf
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Jan 2011
Age: 36
Gender: Female
Posts: 35,278
Location: Somewhere in Colorado

04 Apr 2018, 1:48 am

Daniel89 wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:

Its not one person having more money than another person, it is 1% of the population having most of countries over-all wealth. Thus they get all the benefits of any economic prosperity while everyone else gets scraps in a manner of speaking.

Also no one is talking about rich people taking care of peoples kids for them, just paying a fair tax rate like the rest of us so that there are funds for infrastructure and social programs that help the impoverished. Also what are parents to do if they are working as much as they can and their wealthier employer is not paying them a living wage which is the situation for a lot of people?


The rich paying taxes to pay for other peoples kids is them taking care of other peoples kids. What exactly is a living wage? If you are worth more than you are being paid then you can find another job where they will pay you what you are worth.


No its paying taxes like citizens are supposed to do, some of which will go into programs that help poor people. Why should the rich get special passes from paying their taxes when the rest of us don't.

Also no there isn't always the option for people to find another job where they will pay them a living wage. There isn't just endless availability of 'a better job' not to mention a lot of labor jobs are investing in machines to replace a lot of human labor force. Maybe in the U.K there is an abundance of better jobs, but not here...its ridiculous someone can work full time even into over-time and still struggle to afford a 1 bedroom apartment.


_________________
Tis the time to melt the Ice.


Kraichgauer
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 49,751
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.

04 Apr 2018, 1:55 am

Daniel89 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
More often than not, corruption is money's secret partner.


Yes but when people go after the money and not the corruption you end up with system like Venezuela and Soviet Russia. More Corruption and less money for everyone.


Who says I want to go after money? I just want the influence of money to be negated, and return to the ideology of one man one vote.


_________________
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Daniel89
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 5 Oct 2017
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,592

04 Apr 2018, 1:56 am

Sweetleaf wrote:

No its paying taxes like citizens are supposed to do, some of which will go into programs that help poor people. Why should the rich get special passes from paying their taxes when the rest of us don't.

Also no there isn't always the option for people to find another job where they will pay them a living wage. There isn't just endless availability of 'a better job' not to mention a lot of labor jobs are investing in machines to replace a lot of human labor force. Maybe in the U.K there is an abundance of better jobs, but not here...its ridiculous someone can work full time even into over-time and still struggle to afford a 1 bedroom apartment.


Who says they are supposed to? What moral right you do have to the products of someone else's labour? There is a huge difference between everyone contributing into a pot for defence and public services and "wealth redistribution" which is just theft.

If you cannot afford a 1 bedroom apartment then why have children? If we had fewer low skilled labourers the value of low skilled labour would increase.