Liberal Christians: How do you make it work?

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Spiderpig
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14 Aug 2018, 2:53 pm

Depends on how high it was dropped onto their heads from.

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TwilightPrincess
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14 Aug 2018, 2:58 pm

Spiderpig wrote:

Depends on how high it was dropped onto their heads from.

True. Also, some editions can be pretty heavy - especially the ones with illustrations and study guides.

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Tim_Tex
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14 Aug 2018, 4:30 pm

My view is that the Bible can be interpreted a whole bunch of ways.

I think that as science and technology have progressed, any literal interpretations have become useless.

I think the biggest problem with Christianity, especially in the U.S., is its extreme involvement in politics, and that politics has allowed many otherwise good Christians to be corrupted.

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TwilightPrincess
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14 Aug 2018, 4:43 pm

Tim_Tex wrote:

It’ll be interesting to see what the country looks like in 50 years. There’s plenty of extreme fundamentalists who get involved in politics and have lots of children. It’s a strong movement in reaction to liberalism.

It just seems like we’re getting more divided.

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Esmerelda Weatherwax
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14 Aug 2018, 4:53 pm

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TwilightPrincess
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14 Aug 2018, 5:25 pm

Esmerelda Weatherwax wrote:

Hi TwilightPrincess,

I've only read your initial post so I admit I'm missing others' input here, but what I say will either resonate with other replies or it will be additional info.

I was raised on the other side of the issue - liberal through and through. So I was taught that God exists, but that it's a form of pride, which is the true original sin, for any mere human or group of humans to think that we somehow have perfect and entire knowledge of God's will and character, and any right whatsoever to tell any other human being what to believe and how to worship. I grew up believing that the greatest gift we were given as human beings is free will, and that if we are not free to choose how we engage with God, then we are not free, period.

What that actually means, in practice, is that I'm free to believe that the Jews and the Muslims and the Jains and the Buddhists, if they are people of good will, are all seeking the same God that I am, but along different paths. Which will ultimately converge, in ways I can't see - and don't need to; I'm not God.

Now, the whole inerrancy-of-Scripture thing takes on a very different aspect from this perspective. Whose Scripture? Which translation? Where's the humility in that position? Again, I was raised to see all Scripture as holy, and also as sacred poetry. The big, main principles - don't kill, don't steal, don't tell lies to people or about them, behave honorably towards your marriage partner (or partners), treat children lovingly and creation kindly - they're universals. And for me, anyone who claims a faith, AND behaves as though they mean it? Tries to be better every day than they were the day before (allowing for normal human stuff & nonsense)? Thinks about their actions, and can admit when they've been wrong - without defensiveness of any kind - and make actual amends? Yeah, they're doin' it right. Not my business if they're doing it in Hebrew or Farsi or reading it from the Sanskrit.

This is pretty much the common ground where most interfaith groups seem to meet, from what I've seen. And thank God for those groups. And I'm not being funny, there.

Don't know if this helps, but I hope it does.

(Edit in: if you want a sense of how this view reconciles with science, look for a book by Loren Eiseley called "The Star Thrower" - it's a collection of essays; the title essay is the one to read (first). )

(Edit in again: You'll notice there's no mention here of tithing or the Eschaton or same sex anything or family planning etc. - that's not an oversight.)

I have trouble seeing all scripture as holy. There’s lots of evilness in it.

If there is a God, I reject him wholeheartedly. He must be a very immoral or weak sort of being. He’s immoral for allowing people (especially small children) to suffer. Or he’s too weak to do anything about it.

I think he (or she) could potentially be like the gods and goddesses of Greek mythology. They didn’t make any attempt to come across as good or holy.

Humility bothers me a little, too. Us human beings have done a lot of awesome and amazing things. We should be proud!

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Esmerelda Weatherwax
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14 Aug 2018, 5:36 pm

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redrobin62
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14 Aug 2018, 5:42 pm

@Esmerelda Weatherwax

I just wanted to state that Jains are not searching for "God" because we don't accept there was a creator god. We believe the universe was always here and will always be here.

At times you may hear or read about us referencing a god. This, to us, is a twofold concept. 1. Our prophets (Thirtankars) have ascended to a throne in heaven and could now be considered a "god." 2. When we pray to any of these Thirtankars (there are 24), it's not to ask for anything; they can't hear us. It's just to show our respect for the teachings they've left behind.

And now, back to our feature presentation.

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Esmerelda Weatherwax
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14 Aug 2018, 5:43 pm

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kraftiekortie
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14 Aug 2018, 5:48 pm

Esme:

I believe you are more in accord with Twilight's thinking than you believe you are.

She's very much into morals/ethics.

She's also very much into humility.

There's lots of common ground between you and her. I hope you can cultivate each other.

TwilightPrincess
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14 Aug 2018, 6:03 pm

Esmerelda Weatherwax wrote:

That's fine, you don't have to believe what I do, or what X does, or Y, or anything at all, for that matter :-)

. Which you already know.

I was thinking about posting a bit about the difference between morals and ethics, too, because it's relevant, but it sounds as though that wouldn't be very useful in the circumstances.

Good luck to you :-)

We could talk about morality and ethics.

Ethics are from an external belief system. Morality is internal. While I follow some of the eithical principles of Christianity from my upbringing, some of it doesn’t fit in with my personal sense of morality. My moral beliefs are very important to me.

I’m interested in Kohlberg’s theory of moral development. In stage 6, moral reasoning is based on abstract reasoning using universal eithical principles. I like this, for the most part, but I’m unsure of the true universality of many “ethical principles.”

Anyway, if one were to apply this to an all-powerful God, he clearly wouldn’t be at this highest level of moral development. He could relieve suffering (wouldn’t that be the universally ethical thing to do?), and yet, he does nothing.

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TwilightPrincess
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14 Aug 2018, 6:15 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:

I’m definitely into humility. As a matter of fact, I’m the most humble person that I know. You’ll never meet anyone more humble than me.

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naturalplastic
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15 Aug 2018, 5:49 pm

Twilightprincess wrote:

kraftiekortie wrote:

I’m definitely into humility. As a matter of fact, I’m the most humble person that I know. You’ll never meet anyone more humble than me.

And you're damned proud of it! :lol:

ltcvnzl
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15 Aug 2018, 6:35 pm

I'm not religious anymore (recently I started to miss it) but I was raised in a catholic family in a quite liberal context. I have the impression it's much more of an latin american context but we have a few quite progressive sectors in catholic church, the first time I ever had contact with a group for legal abortion was inside the church. if today i'm a leftist, it's much thanks for those nice and smart catholic people i met growing up (until high school, my schools were rather conservative or avoided political/intellectual debates).

it was a common view that the bible was something to be interpreted, open discussion over it were welcomed, as holy as it was, it had suffered from translations and editing.

Esmerelda Weatherwax
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15 Aug 2018, 7:00 pm

^^ I love liberation theology, itcvnzl, and I still mourn Oscar Romero... also left the church decades ago, because as a Quaker friend of mine would say, it didn't "speak to my condition" anymore. I miss the church I knew in the late 70s, but not the church I see today, where people are bullied into emptying their pockets and tithes are more important than common decency. But I was raised in liberal faith and that will be with me always.

I hope the OP responds to you with less overt hostility than she did to me. The replies left me convinced that this thread was created to entice liberals into posting openly about their faith, so they could be mocked and humiliated for their beliefs.

I don't play those games, so I pulled my posts. Be nice if I was wrong, but I don't think so.

TwilightPrincess
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15 Aug 2018, 7:15 pm

Esmerelda Weatherwax wrote:

I am sorry about how I responded to you. It was not my intention to mock and humiliate you.

I regret starting this thread.

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