APA says "traditional masculinity" is a disorder

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Toxic Male Syndrome - A specific model of manhood geared towards dominance and control; features of which include, but are not limited to:

• Abusive, Loud, and/or Rude Language (i.e., Insults, Profanity, and "Hate Speech")

• Bullying (i.e., Blaming, Intimidation, Physical Assault, Scapegoating, Sexual Assault, Shaming, Taunting, et cetera)

• Contempt for Intelligence and Knowledge (i.e., Devaluation of Educated People, especially those who reason from facts and/or who can think for themselves)

• Contempt for Real or Perceived Differences in Others (i.e., Opinions, Skin Color, Religion, Politics, Ideologies, Brand Loyalties, et cetera)

• Contempt for Real or Perceived Failures or Weaknesses in Others (i.e., Devaluation of People who are Disabled, Ill, Imperfect or "Ugly", Injured, Kind, Law-Abiding, Physically Smaller, Patient, Peaceful, Physically Weaker, Self-Controlled, Shy, Temperate, Timid, et cetera)

• Creation of and participation in Hierarchies that benefit others; but only as long as those other provide a beneficial quid-pro-quo

• Denial of toxic male behavior as "bad"

• Extreme Risk-Taking (i.e., alcohol, crime, drugs, fights, tobacco, et cetera)

• Extreme Self-Denial (i.e., Denial of His Own Flaws, Illnesses, Injuries, Pain, Suffering, Toxic Behavior, Weaknesses, et cetera)

• Extreme Self-Reliance (e.g., "Individualism")

• Extreme Stoicism (i.e., the Stifling of His own Emotional Expression)

• Homophobia (e.g., Devaluation, Subjugation, and Physical Assault of LGBTQs)

• Institutionalized Misogyny (e.g., Devaluation, Subjugation, and Sexual Assault of Women; especially in the context of Pornography)

• Justification of toxic male behavior as "good" or "necessary"

• Justification of Violence Against Others (i.e., "If they weren't so weak, they wouldn't get hurt when I hit them.")

• Narcissism (i.e., His Way is the Only Way; His Way or "The Highway", Nothing is Ever His Fault, et cetera)

• Obsession with "Objects of Power" (i.e., Big Dogs, Firearms, Knives, Swords, Big Trucks, Power Tools, Obnoxious "Bling", et cetera)

• Obsession with "Symbols of Power" (i.e., Flags, Uniforms, Tattoos, Totems, and Geometric Designs favored by oppressors, such as Stars, Swastikas, et cetera)

• Obsession with Control, Dominance, Power, and Victory over others

• Obsession with Impressing Others (i.e., Body-Building, Bragging, Bravado, Swagger, et cetera)

• Obsession with Status (i.e., Pursuit of Influence, Popularity, and Power)

• Pride in the magnitude and frequency of the pain and humiliation they inflict on others.

• Primacy of Conformity Over Diversity (i.e., Skin Color, Religion, Politics, Ideologies, Brand Loyalties, Team Loyalties, et cetera)

• Primacy of One Cultural Identity over all others cultural identities.

• Primacy of Self Over Others.

• Primacy of Work and Career over Relationships and Family

• Promiscuity (e.g., "Okay for males, but not okay for females.")

• Racism - Primacy of one's own race over all others

• Rage (e.g., Anger and/or Violence that is out of proportion to their triggering events)

• Sexism - Primacy of "Manly Men" over women and lesser men

• Xenophobia (e.g., Devaluation, Subjugation, and Physical Assault of Foreigners and Immigrants)

This is not an all-or-nothing issue; instead, the more of these behaviors that a man displays on a regular basis, the more likely he is to have Toxic Male Syndrome. Unfortunately, it is also more likely that he will force himself upon women, and then intimidate them into silence; thus concealing his toxicity from those who could intervene.

this really feels clickbaty outrage-porn. I do not like being manipulated.

I wouldn't, because I think it's a needless gendering of bad behaviours. I would agree that certain bad behaviours are exhibited more by men than by women and vice versa, but I've also been called a misogynist for even suggesting there could be such a thing as "toxic femininity" in exactly equivalent terms i.e. if "extreme stoicism" is an aspect of "toxic masculinity" then "extreme intemperence" would be an aspect of "toxic femininity".




And my experience is that it's a dishonest bait-and-switch, where the definition changes depending on whether or not I already accept it. If I accept it already the definition becomes broad, insidious and something that's inherent in men that I must take steps to actively combat in myself lest I unknowingly succumb to my inherent urge to be a terrible person, and it's used as a moral bludgeon to hobble my contribution to a discussion or a debate. If I don't accept it, the definition becomes confined to the worst sort of stereotypical chauvanistic behaviour, and since I deny the concept I must also deny the existence of such people or possibly embody it myself, making me look unreasonable. It's a front-loaded parlour trick to gain the moral high ground.



I'm not sure I accept "sexual objectification" as a valid concept, either (at least in the way it's usually talked about). "Objectification" is a term used in psychiatry (or psychology, I forget which) to describe a condition in which a person is unable to make a distinction between objects and living creatures in terms of ther own actions effect on them (and is thus capable of treating people as objects unworthy of consideration). I don't know about you, but this is not what I'm doing when I'm appreciating a beautiful woman EVEN if I'm just admiring her physical appearance.

And you do know men's lesser propensity and ability to cry is biological, right? In fact, a whole bunch of the things usually listed under the heading of "toxic male behavour" are biological in nature, but are talked about as though it's just something boys learn and men must unlearn. It's almost like this is an idea that comes from people who think everything is a social construct and can just be disregarded, unlearned and changed on a whim without consequence. Almost.

As for not being a real man because you're disinclined to treat women like s**t and comfortable with kindness and showing emotion and all the rest of it; where are you getting these dumb ideas from? These are stereotypes that exist, sure. But the stereotype isn't that people who behave like this are what "real men" are like; it's that people who behave this way will frequently talk about how much of a "real man" they are whilst clearly being petty and insecure a**holes. Stop taking manliness cues from Gaston from Beauty and the Beast.

How about instead disregarding those ideas completely, and instead strive to embody a positive masculine ideal that's not informed by the opinion of people who think that boys are defective girls? I know that



is apparently one of those verboten things that you mustn't do, but men have existed throughout history, and some of them were pretty good at being men and others not so much, and both can serve as examples to emulate (or not, as the case may be). History and literature are both goldmines.




Yes, but only because that's precisely what it is.



"our best selves" as defined by whom?





This list yours, or did you find it somewhere? Couldn't find it in OP's link. Either way, plenty of weaselly words and Kafka-esque trickery in there. ("denial of toxic masculinity is a sign of toxic masculinity")

Also, how is Racism, Sexism, Homophobia and Xenophobia useful things to include in that list? Or Narcissism, for that matter? And how does one person exhibit "institutionalized misogyny"? And how many of these things must I have before I can call in sick from work because I apparently have testosterone poisoning?

I think this list is kind of hilarious, because the behaviors mentioned I don't consider to be exclusive to males. Substitute "female" for any area above that references "male" and since there was no item such as: "In love with his own penis", every single item you mention in that list could also be attributable to a woman who acts in those ways or believes or doesn't believe in those things.

"Well, yeah, but......those would be women that would be exhibiting characteristically toxic male traits."

Whatever. This one's getting a few eye rolls from me.

So you think that toxic behavior does not exist ...

I think you are on to something Magna....perhaps we need a list for 'Toxic Femininity'

Do you think toxic behavior in the ways you listed is strictly male specific?

That would just be the gender role pressed onto women that we don't all fit and that is limiting for us and does us harm, just as toxic masculinity does for males. So I would say toxic femininity is stuff like learned helplessness, dependence, helicopter parenting/mommy-blogging, over-sexualization of young women, passive aggression rather than assertive behaviour, and things like that. Qualities that are pressed upon us and expected of us by society that are maladaptive and tied to our gender expression. So yeah, I would say toxic femininity is a real thing just like toxic masculinity is--it's just another name for the toxic out-of-date gender roles that harm our psyches, for both men and women.

Did no one notice that a few years before a similar report was written for the "psychology of girls and women" which laid out toxic gender roles for women and how those expectations harm women and girls just like toxic masculinity is harmful to boys and men? It says so right in the article:

So for all you guys complaining, where were you when the Psychological Practice With Girls and Women was issued in 2007, were you complaining then about how talking about "toxic femininity" was so unfair to girls? Because I bet you didn't give a s**t about it then. You only care because you hear the word "masculinity" and you jump to the conclusion that all men are being attacked somehow and so you flip out. You've all been triggered to outrage over nothing, just like the evil SJWs that you like to mock all the time on here. It's kind of funny in an ironic way.

And to be fair, from what I've seen, "toxic femininity" is indeed something that is recognized by women because it's talked about on this site mostly in the Women's Discussion forum in topics about things like dealing with judgement because we as autistic women don't often fit the "toxic feminine" gender role that is expected of us like many of us don't dress in a overtly "feminine" way, some of us don't want children (and therefore to become super attachment-parent-style mommy blogger monsters like you see all over social media), and various other atypical behaviours that we get judged for as women. It's a real phenomenon for both sexes, and it's harmful to both in different ways.

I rarely get "triggered", or do "flip out" about much of anything. I like to save my energy for things that I enjoy and that give me pleasure.

In 2007 I was working and helping to raise two toddlers (e.g. feeding, changing diapers, reading stories, going to parks, etc). I never even heard about anything the APA was doing at that point.

IF the APA gave examples of "toxic femininity" and any such examples could just as easily have been attributable to males, then I would disagree with that in kind.

I was thinking of toxic-femininity in different means. Toxic mainly representing 'toxic behavior', just as the male version. I wouldn't call innocent, dependent and loving toxic behavior. I was thinking more along the lines of the same qualities for toxic men just replacing 'man' with 'woman'. Basically how I view the qualities laid out for toxic masculinity are hateful, full of one's self, poop non-stinking type of person, toxic qualities, thus the same qualities in a woman would be quite awful as well. We will just say that is my version of toxic femininity. Hateful people are hateful people, nice people are nice people, bio-sex is irrelevant.

I was undiagnosed and did not care or know what the American Psychological Association was in 2007.

It should be of note that the 2019 APA report describes “traditional masculinity” not “toxic masculinity”. Traditional men would seem to be a larger group then toxic men. We are assuming “traditional men” is an APA euphemism for “toxic men” because they are saying it is harmful and toxic masculinity is much more of a buzz phrase then it was in 2007.

Of course American psychiatry and psychology have a long history of misogyny from the catch all diagnosis of hysteria to the central Freudian concept of everything is the mothers fault.

I don't think that list is masculine either. Some of it is. It's not even all bad. Things like putting yourself first or putting your career first are not bad things. I don't know what's bad about the hierarchy thing either, if you're not useful then what's the point in you being in the hierarchy when you can be replaced with someone who is? What's wrong with self reliance? The misogyny one is strange because bad things are described, but then it is stated especially in pornography. I would have thought especially in reality not fiction would be important, I don't see anything wrong with that stuff in porn. It's not real, there is no victim and they're getting paid to do it. It's not wrong in video games or movies or literature and it's not wrong in porn either. Heck, it's less wrong in porn because some people actually get the deepest fulfilment from being the "victim" in these scenarios, from being dominated. The rest of them I do agree with at least as being bad.

So then "Traditional Masculinity" is not so much about violence and intimidation as it is about:

• Denying and never complaining about our own illnesses, injuries and weaknesses
• Erecting strong emotional barriers between ourselves and our loved ones
• Presenting an image of courage and strength in the face of opposition (real or potential)
• Protecting what is ours from all possible threats
• Taking out our aggressions, anger and frustrations through sports and risky behavior
• Working ourselves to death to provide for our loved ones

In other words, the traditional male is the strong, silent type who works hard, never complains, dies young, and leaves behind a life-insurance policy for his wife to cash in on.

Well, quite. The pettiness and insecurity are no small part of toxic masculinity. And while intelligent adults might recognise these as pettiness and insecurity, they're scarily commonplace amongst people who for whatever reason (be that age or simply opportunity) haven't learned to think critically about these sorts of things.

As for "men crying less than women is physiological", well, even the scientists I could find who supported that idea still said that social factors played a role.

I can accept that it can sometimes be easy to talk at cross purposes. That's partially why I started by attempting to define the topic. If you do that then you can establish whether the other person means "the ways in which patriarchy hurts men" or "the reason men suck" (incidentally, not sure I've ever seen it used that second way except by people who are opposed to the concept - in other words, it's a straw man).