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spacemonkey
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20 Jul 2005, 10:35 am

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I think that it is possible for a berieved person to choose to blame God, rather than to grow closer.


This is a good point.
I wonder if you have ever seen the movie Jacob's Ladder?
Anyone else?

One idea presented in the movie is that heaven and hell are two differing perspectives on death. If you are attached to something, or to your life, then death feels like a stripping away or some sort of torture (by fire perhaps.)
If you are seeking "god", then death is like an angel come to set you free, or take you home.

"whosoever will save his life shall lose it, and whosover will lose his life for my sake shall find it" Matthew 16:25



PhoenixKitten
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20 Jul 2005, 3:46 pm

spacemonkey wrote:
I wonder if you have ever seen the movie Jacob's Ladder?


Don't think so, but it sounds good and makes sense! Can you hire it at just regular video stores?


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spacemonkey
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20 Jul 2005, 5:39 pm

You know I just realized that probably sounds like a bible story movie or something. :lol:

It is actually a very bizarre story about some vietnam veterans.
Came out in the early 90's, very dreamlike and confusing, but deep stuff.
They have it it just about any video place here in the US.

Here's the quote

Quote:
The only thing that burns in Hell is the part of you that won't let go of life, your memories, your attachments. They burn them all away. But they're not punishing you, he said. They're freeing your soul. So, if you're frightened of dying and... and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the earth."



here's a link http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASI ... 15-7353428



vetivert
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21 Jul 2005, 12:54 pm

Nomaken wrote:
Well i am about as religious as a turtle.


that's turtle-ist!



Katze
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06 Aug 2005, 7:28 pm

[quote="PhoenixKitten"]
As other people have already said, there is a bunch of free will in this: God gave us the power of choice, and the choices we make have consequences.


Mrs Delaware said that according to Ramana Maharshi there is neither free will nor destiny or free choice, they are all human constructs. She also woders if he was an Aspie
8O


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Katze
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06 Aug 2005, 7:40 pm

spacemonkey wrote:
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The only thing that burns in Hell is the part of you that won't let go of life, your memories, your attachments. They burn them all away.



You don't have to go to hell to experience this or die, this can happen here, now, while you are living your life.


Enjoy....

Mrs Delaware 8O



SquanderedPotential
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07 Aug 2005, 12:57 pm

god sucks that's why


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fionaban
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08 Aug 2005, 1:36 pm

y does God suck?


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09 Aug 2005, 2:37 am

are you serious??

have you lived in a bubble all your life fiona? have you not seen intolerable cruelty or experienced any pain in this life? i guess you haven't, or maybe you just like to dwell in your bubble and forget about others' torment, brush it aside because you don't like to look at it. it's easier to believe that you're too stupid to understand or think for yourself so you leave it in the hands of some invisible gentle giant. well, i hope if it's your turn to suffer one day, your god will be there, because it'll be a rough ride.


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fionaban
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09 Aug 2005, 7:16 am

i haven't lived in a bubble. i have had hard times but i turst in the Lord 2 get me though them. i have seen awefull things happen but i belive that the Lord is going 2 help these ppl though them.
God Bless
Fiona


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Mark
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09 Aug 2005, 4:29 pm

fionaban wrote:
i haven't lived in a bubble. i have had hard times but i turst in the Lord 2 get me though them. i have seen awefull things happen but i belive that the Lord is going 2 help these ppl though them.
God Bless
Fiona


I've seen some awful things too. But waiting for someone or something else to fix them has never solved anything for me. People need to work to help themselves and each other.

:: Mark



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09 Aug 2005, 7:28 pm

A wise person once said that you should pray as though everything depends on the answer to your prayer and act as though everything depends solely on the outcome of your actions. In other words, do the best you can, then trust God to do the rest.

I haven't lived in a bubble either: far from it, and it sorely tested my faith in God before it strengthened it. I wouldn't be half as close now if it weren't for all the hard stuff. Just remember: if the sun didn't set and darkness fall we wouldn't know that the stars existed.


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jackd
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09 Aug 2005, 8:33 pm

SquanderedPotential - what is your conception of god?

I ask because you speak of god in a traditional sense, but I don't think those are your beliefs - you sound atheist or agnostic to me. Were you raised "christian" and have since rejected it? Are you just addressing it based on the beliefs of others, or do you really think of god as an invisible person in the sky that pushes everything around to make it move and he's just an a**hole? That we're merely puppets on strings and he causes good and bad things to happen? I feel that's not what you think, and yet you seem to blame god for the evil in the world. The most evil I've seen done has been done by humans, not by "nature" (as if we're somehow apart from the rest of the world), and even with nature I doubt you believe there is an invisible "person-god" cracking the earth open during earthquakes.

Just as you say, it's silly to "leave it in the hands of some invisible gentle giant", but you have no problem blaming things on this same invisible gentle giant? I don't understand. I also feel the pain of the world, the devastation and sorrow constantly occurring, even if it's not happening to me, but why "blame god"? Do you do it so you don't have to blame yourself for not doing something about it?



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09 Aug 2005, 11:24 pm

There is no God, period. If you still think there is, let me ask you this.

Why would God let his own Temple get destroyed? Twice! First, by the Babylonians, then by the Romans. Read the following biblical summaries to prove that God doesn't exist.

Israelites worked hard to get that building, to dedicate it to God. They quarried stones of all kinds from all over Judea; they cut the cedars of Lebanon; they hauled all that material all the way to Jerusalem. Given the technology the Israelites had, you can imagine how much effort that took. The resulting First Temple looked amazingly splendid. (Refer to I Kings and II Kings for a description.) In 534 B.C., God turned around and let the Babylonians invade Israel, resulting in the complete leveling of the Temple.

Israelites grieved over the destriction. But they remained faithful in God. They quarried more stone, cut more trees, and hauled the material to Jerusalem. The rebuilt the Second Temple. It was far less splendid than the First, but it was still The Temple. Jesus taught his early followers inside it, after having cast out the vendors. In 70 A.D., the Romans invaded Israel. They leveled Jerusalem to the ground, and destroyed the Second Temple. (Refer to Jeremiah for an account of the destruction.) This temple was never rebuilt. Only one part of it remains, called the Wailing Wall.

After giving you the background, here's a mathemical proof by contradiction. My question to you is this. Why would God allow the destruction of HIS OWN TEMPLE!!? I can expect God not giving a damn about people, but that was his own temple (or temples), for crying out loud. In a way, he would be destroying himself and the people dedicating themselves to him. And if God is as all-knowing as people think he is, he wouldn't destroy himself. This is a contradiction. Conclusion? God doesn't exist.
Q.E.D. (a mathematical abbreviation of "this is what we proved")



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10 Aug 2005, 8:08 am

fionaban wrote:
i haven't lived in a bubble. i have had hard times but i turst in the Lord 2 get me though them. i have seen awefull things happen but i belive that the Lord is going 2 help these ppl though them.
God Bless
Fiona


well maybe the lord can help, who knows, the thing is though, why are these bad things happening in the first place?

PhoenixKitten wrote:
A wise person once said that you should pray as though everything depends on the answer to your prayer and act as though everything depends solely on the outcome of your actions. In other words, do the best you can, then trust God to do the rest.

I haven't lived in a bubble either: far from it, and it sorely tested my faith in God before it strengthened it. I wouldn't be half as close now if it weren't for all the hard stuff. Just remember: if the sun didn't set and darkness fall we wouldn't know that the stars existed.


my point is that sometimes, quite often actually, the sun sets too much. i know the stars exist, and i've grown from my pain, and gotten stronger from it, but there comes a point when the pain no longer makes you grow or appreciate the good times, but only destroys you. now why does this perfect being let that happen? tell me god is an impotent dork and i'll say, ok, maybe god exists after all, and maybe he meant well... but a perfect god wouldn't have made the world into what it is.


jackd wrote:
SquanderedPotential - what is your conception of god?

I ask because you speak of god in a traditional sense, but I don't think those are your beliefs - you sound atheist or agnostic to me. Were you raised "christian" and have since rejected it? Are you just addressing it based on the beliefs of others, or do you really think of god as an invisible person in the sky that pushes everything around to make it move and he's just an a**hole? That we're merely puppets on strings and he causes good and bad things to happen? I feel that's not what you think, and yet you seem to blame god for the evil in the world. The most evil I've seen done has been done by humans, not by "nature" (as if we're somehow apart from the rest of the world), and even with nature I doubt you believe there is an invisible "person-god" cracking the earth open during earthquakes.

Just as you say, it's silly to "leave it in the hands of some invisible gentle giant", but you have no problem blaming things on this same invisible gentle giant? I don't understand. I also feel the pain of the world, the devastation and sorrow constantly occurring, even if it's not happening to me, but why "blame god"? Do you do it so you don't have to blame yourself for not doing something about it?


i don't blame god, and you're right, i'm more agnostic/nihilist than anything. i'm just sick of people praising something that - if it existed - would be a total idiot screw up or an a**hole.

and btw, the evil humans do would be god's fault because god made us the way we are. and don't even get me started on that whole free will baloney.


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your smile lights the sky
your eyes clear like
the mirrorponds
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"If you fit the mold of a chipmunk, you probably aren't a kangaroo." - DeepThought


tokaia
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11 Aug 2005, 3:45 am

My guess as to why "god" lets bad things happen is because there is no god, IMO. If there was a god, and he/she/it was as "loving" and "tolerant" as everyone is decieved to believe, innocent children wouldn't die, and horrible people wouldn't get away with the horrible things they do. :?

"He" has never helped me. He wasn't there when my mother abused me, or when I had to suffer 12 years of school. He will never be there, because he is about as real as Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny. :evil:

Bec wrote:
aaronkt wrote:
I know in the Bible God says he will never forsake us. Then why does he allow for bad stuff to happen in this world? Does he ever feel upset when something bad happens to one of his people?


The answer to your question is very simple. The Biblical God is evil and malevolent.


I couldn't agree more.