Trump: King of Id
Kraichgauer wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Yes, but it goes beyond that. Putin has stated he thinks the fall of the Soviet Union was his country's greatest catastrophe, and that he blames America, first, and foremost for that. He wants revenge, and that means taking America out as the world leader. So far, he's accomplishing that through his oranges turncoat.
He still has a long time to wait, imo.
Putin is a big fish in a small pond, by comparison to the former glories of the U.S.S.R.
BTW, wasn't it the Soviet's arms race that prompted retaliation, in kind?
Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.
At one stage, you have the soviet army literally turning to cannibalism to survive, because the USSR was broke.

Putin tries to remain relevant by shooting down passenger airlines and poisoning those who he considers dissidents.
I wouldn't worry too much about him.

Putin's been putting pro-Russian leaders into power in countries like Ukraine, Georgia, probably the USA, and has been disrupting politics in other countries with his internet troll farms, all to weaken those he sees as enemies. Just because the Republican dominated senate let Trump get away hardly means he and his secret Kremlin benefactor weren't actually guilty.
Bottom line: Putin has little global influence, compared to china.
"The Bear" is old and motheaten.
"The Tiger" is ambitious and arrogant.
Also, consider:
The story about russian influence in the "Trump" elections had no traction, ultimately, despite 2 years(?) worth of Democratic efforts.
Are you saying your "judiciary system" is crap?

shlaifu wrote:
Karamazov wrote:
shlaifu wrote:
To the extent that the Russians have been practicing information warfare against their own people since the late 90s, and they have extended it to the rest of the world over the last ten years or so. The goal not being to win, but to gain money and power, while the rest is confused and unable to figure out who then enemy is and what his motivations are.
Trump is a perfect pawn in this "war on reality"
Trump is a perfect pawn in this "war on reality"
I’ve heard contemporary Russian propaganda methods described as “firehosing”: in that there’s no central narrative, no ideology being sold, just a endlessly shifting kaleidoscope of every conspiracy theory imaginable sprayed across every channel of communication the Kremlin can gain access too. The point being to confuse, frustrate and bewilder the audience until they self-radicalise in a manner according to their own private biases and prejudices: tearing all possibility of trust and social order to shreds in the process.
I’d go out on a limb and say that the greatest proximate threat to us in Europe is Putin & mob’s machinations and backdoor funding of various political movements across the continent:
I suspect he’s out to disintegrate the EU and then pick off Eastern Europe one state at a time as per the ongoing attempt in Ukraine.
Then the Orange Ones obvious preference for Russian bankrolled malevolents... although that has a four more years max time-limit: if Europe as a whole (including us Brits) can hold off from succumbing further to Putins mind-games we might be through the particular challenge of having both the White House and the Kremlin simultaneously hostile to us.
Then the CCP and their investment patterns are the ultimate long-term issue: for the time being economic colonisation within the European systems as they are seems to be their game, the worry is what happens if(when) our leaders have the will & free hand to push back.
The phrases you're using, the "endlessly shifting kaleidoscope", sound like Adam Curtis. ... I was interested where Curtis got this and went to look for his sources, mainly one Peter Pomerantsev, who's running a thinktank at the London School of economics on media warfare, after he spent a few years in Russia as a TV journalist.
He wrote two books by now, which I highly recommend. You did get the gist already, but at least the second of his books, "this is not propaganda - adventures in the war against reality" shows just how ubiquitous this technique of firehosing is becoming.
And, yeah, it seems like the US is a bit ahead of Europe, when it comes to the population self-radicalizing, because there's no one to trust anymore.
The CCP has learned how to use economics against the West, by copying the west, particularly during the 90s Asian financial crisis. They're now returning the favours.
But at least, with the CCP, I can see how they're doing this for the Chinese people.
The people in Putin's Russia however have undergone the Putin treatment of learned distrust....
But let's be clear: what are we expecting? Capitalism is no-holds-barred economic competition, on every level. Not acting aggressively to one's advantage will lead to disadvantage. Russia and China were behind in the 19th century, devastated by Germans and Japanese, then rebuilt under inefficient totalitarian rule in the 20th, and now they are playing their cards as best as they can.
There's no friendship among Nations.
Yeah, I am a “not very well closeted” Adam Curtis fan (apparently he’s got a new project in the works that was scheduled for release this year, expect it’s been delayed though).
Peter Pomerantsev, I’ve had a couple of his talks that have been uploaded to YouTube (by IWM Vienna if memory serves) on whilst doing things about the house, he’s on my list of authors to read with attention.
Also Masha Gessen on that particular line, several interviews with her: one in particular with Timothy Snyder stands out as having been quite illuminating in my memory. I’ve also read several of Carole Cadwallr’s articles on the social/cash networks she uncovered before she was forced into hiding by threats from a variety of far-right organisations.
There’s also a talk on this subject by Stephen Kotkin somewhere on YouTube from a few years back: he’s more skeptical of current Kremlin power and influence than the others, but not an advocate of complacency either.
Yes, I was in three minds as to whether the UK or the US or France if the western countries has succumbed further to self-radicalising influences: at present the US appears to be in the lead there I’ll agree.
Capitalism as institutional mechanism and channel yes, but I’m going with geopolitical theory as well as that: it may have developed as a conservative academic doctrine during the Cold War, but that doesn’t mean it lacks the potential for profound insight.
The Beijing Politburo is, you’re right, primarily focused on building up China industrially, economically and diplomatically: but long-term they can’t do that without subverting the US centred global order as we know it, a process which I doubt would be a peaceable improvement for the global poor beyond the PRC’s borders.
(I’ve trimmed down the quote stack to avoid posting a huge repetitive chunk of grey borders)
Pepe wrote:
Karamazov wrote:
Then the CCP and their investment patterns are the ultimate long-term issue: for the time being economic colonisation within the European systems as they are seems to be their game, the worry is what happens if(when) our leaders have the will & free hand to push back.
Trump is pushing back now, against the ccp.
Kudos.
If only he were capable of doing so in a clearly systematic way whilst taking a sufficient number of other democratic leaders along with him.
I suspect his divisiveness amongst long-term US allies will leave his specific policy efforts largely impotent on a global scale.
Karamazov wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Karamazov wrote:
Then the CCP and their investment patterns are the ultimate long-term issue: for the time being economic colonisation within the European systems as they are seems to be their game, the worry is what happens if(when) our leaders have the will & free hand to push back.
Trump is pushing back now, against the ccp.
Kudos.
If only he were capable of doing so in a clearly systematic way whilst taking a sufficient number of other democratic leaders along with him.
I suspect his divisiveness amongst long-term US allies will leave his specific policy efforts largely impotent on a global scale.
Europe isn't happy Trump wants them to contribute more to Nato.
America has been "spoon-feeding" them for some time.
They are not happy the teat is not as forthcoming these days.

And didn't the EU shut down a lot of trade deals with America when it formed?
I not sure here.
Tell me if I am wrong.
They did put Australia out in the cold.
I'm still pissed off about that.

Bottom line: I don't think you can blame all the animosity on Trump.
BTW, Australia in on good terms with America, better than with Turnbull.
Kraichgauer
Veteran

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 49,239
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.
Pepe wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Yes, but it goes beyond that. Putin has stated he thinks the fall of the Soviet Union was his country's greatest catastrophe, and that he blames America, first, and foremost for that. He wants revenge, and that means taking America out as the world leader. So far, he's accomplishing that through his oranges turncoat.
He still has a long time to wait, imo.
Putin is a big fish in a small pond, by comparison to the former glories of the U.S.S.R.
BTW, wasn't it the Soviet's arms race that prompted retaliation, in kind?
Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.
At one stage, you have the soviet army literally turning to cannibalism to survive, because the USSR was broke.

Putin tries to remain relevant by shooting down passenger airlines and poisoning those who he considers dissidents.
I wouldn't worry too much about him.

Putin's been putting pro-Russian leaders into power in countries like Ukraine, Georgia, probably the USA, and has been disrupting politics in other countries with his internet troll farms, all to weaken those he sees as enemies. Just because the Republican dominated senate let Trump get away hardly means he and his secret Kremlin benefactor weren't actually guilty.
Bottom line: Putin has little global influence, compared to china.
"The Bear" is old and motheaten.
"The Tiger" is ambitious and arrogant.
Also, consider:
The story about russian influence in the "Trump" elections had no traction, ultimately, despite 2 years(?) worth of Democratic efforts.
Are you saying your "judiciary system" is crap?

There's been plenty of traction. Republicans lost midterm elections which were a mandate on Trump, while state prosecutors in New York and elsewhere have accumulated plenty of evidence that can send Trump up the river.
Trump got exonerated by a docile, timid, Republican dominated senate out of fear of the backlash of Trump's cult rather than due to any evidence presented by the defense.
Yes, Russia is not an economic or military powerhouse, but Putin himself had spent years as a KGB spymaster used to playing the long game in which he has spread his tentacles throughout not just the former Soviet Republics, but also into the west, including the USA. Putin sees the fall of the Soviet Union as the greatest catastrophe in Russian history, and he blames America first and foremost for that. His intention is to leave American world influence and power in ruins. Donald Trump, who Putin had bailed out with loans when no one in their right mind would lend money to, is now in debt to his benefactor. Trump had had no problem laundering money for Kremlin connected oligarchs and gangsters, and now he has no problem carrying out Putin's intentions that are purely detrimental to America.
_________________
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
Karamazov wrote:
The Beijing Politburo is, you’re right, primarily focused on building up China industrially, economically and diplomatically: but long-term they can’t do that without subverting the US centred global order as we know it, a process which I doubt would be a peaceable improvement for the global poor beyond the PRC’s borders.
(I’ve trimmed down the quote stack to avoid posting a huge repetitive chunk of grey borders)
(I’ve trimmed down the quote stack to avoid posting a huge repetitive chunk of grey borders)
That conversation between Gessen and Snyder is fantastic! Thank you for that.
And: yeah, of course the change away from a US-controlled world to a multipolar world is painful, and violent.
But for a lot of the world, so was US-control. From shock-doctrine to the "war on drugs" in south America, to the support of middle eastern Royals and dictators, to the enforcing of free movement of capital anywhere on the globe, to the detriment of the local citizens, all to syphon of wealth to facilitate a global inequality that is simply unsustainable - and guess what, it's collapsing, with our without Chinese or Russian interference. They are actively trying to influence the outcome, but they are not the cause.
_________________
I can read facial expressions. I did the test.
shlaifu wrote:
Karamazov wrote:
The Beijing Politburo is, you’re right, primarily focused on building up China industrially, economically and diplomatically: but long-term they can’t do that without subverting the US centred global order as we know it, a process which I doubt would be a peaceable improvement for the global poor beyond the PRC’s borders.
(I’ve trimmed down the quote stack to avoid posting a huge repetitive chunk of grey borders)
(I’ve trimmed down the quote stack to avoid posting a huge repetitive chunk of grey borders)
That conversation between Gessen and Snyder is fantastic! Thank you for that.
There’s also a very interesting lecture by Snyder on Ivan Ilyin and Putin’s promotion of his works: I think that ones on IWM’s channel.
shlaifu wrote:
And: yeah, of course the change away from a US-controlled world to a multipolar world is painful, and violent.
But for a lot of the world, so was US-control. From shock-doctrine to the "war on drugs" in south America, to the support of middle eastern Royals and dictators, to the enforcing of free movement of capital anywhere on the globe, to the detriment of the local citizens, all to syphon of wealth to facilitate a global inequality that is simply unsustainable - and guess what, it's collapsing, with or without Chinese or Russian interference. They are actively trying to influence the outcome, but they are not the cause.
But for a lot of the world, so was US-control. From shock-doctrine to the "war on drugs" in south America, to the support of middle eastern Royals and dictators, to the enforcing of free movement of capital anywhere on the globe, to the detriment of the local citizens, all to syphon of wealth to facilitate a global inequality that is simply unsustainable - and guess what, it's collapsing, with or without Chinese or Russian interference. They are actively trying to influence the outcome, but they are not the cause.
Think “collapsing” might be an overstatement, but US power is certainly a relatively less significant force than it was during the presidency of Bush Snr.
I’ve read Klein too

I think she has a tendency to see “design” where I see “blinkered ideological bloody-mindedness”: that aside she makes many valid points about why US soft power has been a gradually less valuable political currency as the decades from ‘45 have worn on.
I wouldn’t regard her as having the entire story of course

Pepe wrote:
Karamazov wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Karamazov wrote:
Then the CCP and their investment patterns are the ultimate long-term issue: for the time being economic colonisation within the European systems as they are seems to be their game, the worry is what happens if(when) our leaders have the will & free hand to push back.
Trump is pushing back now, against the ccp.
Kudos.
If only he were capable of doing so in a clearly systematic way whilst taking a sufficient number of other democratic leaders along with him.
I suspect his divisiveness amongst long-term US allies will leave his specific policy efforts largely impotent on a global scale.
Europe isn't happy Trump wants them to contribute more to Nato.
America has been "spoon-feeding" them for some time.
They are not happy the teat is not as forthcoming these days.

Ah, yes.
The American Pericles.
I was thinking more along the lines of his weird gambits to buy territory off European states, disrespect their institutions... and cosy lovely characters like Le Pen and Farage.
As far as higher military budgets go: well, I’d certainly prefer my countries to be a touch more (2.9% of GDP last time I checked, I think something more like 3.5% would be preferable)
Doubt his habit of commanding rather than requesting will produce it though.
Pepe wrote:
And didn't the EU shut down a lot of trade deals with America when it formed?
I not sure here.
Tell me if I am wrong.
They did put Australia out in the cold.
I'm still pissed off about that.
Bottom line: I don't think you can blame all the animosity on Trump.
BTW, Australia in on good terms with America, better than with Turnbull.
I not sure here.
Tell me if I am wrong.
They did put Australia out in the cold.
I'm still pissed off about that.

Bottom line: I don't think you can blame all the animosity on Trump.
BTW, Australia in on good terms with America, better than with Turnbull.
I’m not sure about historical shutting down of deals with the US: I am aware that the UK’s joining was a blow to the export oriented industries of all the former colonies of the Empire... which was not our finest hour.
No, he’s not responsible for the situation he’s inherited: but he can do great harm to his own country long-term by looking like a self-pitying child about it.
Which he does from the perspective of being here on the edge of Europe: although improved US-Oz relationship? Yep, if he keeps it up that will be a positive part of his legacy to presidents to come.
Karamazov wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Karamazov wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Karamazov wrote:
Then the CCP and their investment patterns are the ultimate long-term issue: for the time being economic colonisation within the European systems as they are seems to be their game, the worry is what happens if(when) our leaders have the will & free hand to push back.
Trump is pushing back now, against the ccp.
Kudos.
If only he were capable of doing so in a clearly systematic way whilst taking a sufficient number of other democratic leaders along with him.
I suspect his divisiveness amongst long-term US allies will leave his specific policy efforts largely impotent on a global scale.
Europe isn't happy Trump wants them to contribute more to Nato.
America has been "spoon-feeding" them for some time.
They are not happy the teat is not as forthcoming these days.

Ah, yes.
The American Pericles.
Could you explain what you mean by this?
So, how do you explain the growth in jobs, in America?
Jobs that are particularly benefiting racial minorities?
I hate big business.
So many self-centred psychopaths in management.
But there *are* benefits to the working class.
Isn't it a trade-off?
After all, nothing is perfect in this god-forsaken life system we all have been dragged kicking and screaming into, right?

Karamazov wrote:
I was thinking more along the lines of his weird gambits to buy territory off European states, disrespect their institutions... and cosy lovely characters like Le Pen and Farage.
My sources of political commentary haven't mentioned any of this.
Could you elaborate?
Point to some articles, perhaps?
Karamazov wrote:
As far as higher military budgets go: well, I’d certainly prefer my countries to be a touch more (2.9% of GDP last time I checked, I think something more like 3.5% would be preferable)
Doubt his habit of commanding rather than requesting will produce it though.
Doubt his habit of commanding rather than requesting will produce it though.
So, do you think Nato, as a whole, has been taking advantage of America?
If they have, why would it be wrong for an American President to pull them into line?
I'm surprised you haven't mentioned the inherent *disrespect* the Europeans, as a whole, have been showing America.
Remember the incident where a group of leaders, at a social gathering, were snickering about Trump?
They looked like a bunch of kids ganging up on another kid.
That sort of behaviour is not exactly infused with integrity and maturity.
The inherent attitude of entitlement, of some in Europe, does more damage to them than Trump, from my perspective.
Pepe wrote:
Karamazov wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Karamazov wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Karamazov wrote:
Then the CCP and their investment patterns are the ultimate long-term issue: for the time being economic colonisation within the European systems as they are seems to be their game, the worry is what happens if(when) our leaders have the will & free hand to push back.
Trump is pushing back now, against the ccp.
Kudos.
If only he were capable of doing so in a clearly systematic way whilst taking a sufficient number of other democratic leaders along with him.
I suspect his divisiveness amongst long-term US allies will leave his specific policy efforts largely impotent on a global scale.
Europe isn't happy Trump wants them to contribute more to Nato.
America has been "spoon-feeding" them for some time.
They are not happy the teat is not as forthcoming these days.

Ah, yes.
The American Pericles.
Could you explain what you mean by this?
As in the ancient Athenian statesman: the one who sought to strengthen and expand the Delian League whilst upping the contributions from all other members, and shift it’s focus from Persia to Sparta... a hero to the Athenians, but antagonistic and unwelcome to many other Greek states at the time.
Cue Peloponnesian War and the diminution of Athenian power.
For clarity, I’m not expecting some kind of exact repeat on a larger scale, merely noting that Mr Trump’s foreign policy lead has some parallels with those of Pericles.
Pepe wrote:
So, how do you explain the growth in jobs, in America?
Jobs that are particularly benefiting racial minorities?
I hate big business.
So many self-centred psychopaths in management.
But there *are* benefits to the working class.
Isn't it a trade-off?
After all, nothing is perfect in this god-forsaken life system we all have been dragged kicking and screaming into, right?
Jobs that are particularly benefiting racial minorities?
I hate big business.
So many self-centred psychopaths in management.
But there *are* benefits to the working class.
Isn't it a trade-off?
After all, nothing is perfect in this god-forsaken life system we all have been dragged kicking and screaming into, right?

I think you’re shifting the discussion around a bit here

Yes, there does seem to have been an increase in employment in the US, and ethnic minorities have been amongst those who have benefited from this, I’m also aware there’s an argument as to whether this is due to Trumps policies, or the medium term effects of Obama’s: I suspect six of one and half a dozen of the other is most likely the case... with an extra two from Bush Jnr

I think the “big business” thing is a debate all of it’s own, for brevity: I don’t like it as a phenomena, but accept we don’t have a better alternative to hand for running and maintaining mass production and distribution.
It hasn’t escaped my notice that it’s brought a better standard of living to more folks than former systems, and that all attempts to improve upon it have failed, spectacularly.
Pepe wrote:
Karamazov wrote:
I was thinking more along the lines of his weird gambits to buy territory off European states, disrespect their institutions... and cosy lovely characters like Le Pen and Farage.
My sources of political commentary haven't mentioned any of this.
Could you elaborate?
Point to some articles, perhaps?
Trump proposes buying Greenland from Denmark (WSJ)
(Seeking to abrogate the territory of an ally)
Trump changes stance on NHS re: post brexit trade deal (BBC)
(Threatening to use trade negotiations to undermine domestic institution of an ally)
Trump: “nobody treats us worse than the EU” (DW)
(Casual ignorance of the EU’s origin as a prop to US power, with a whiny bad attitude)
His cosseting and encouragement or “only-just-not-far-right” European political groups is common knowledge.
I think the worst instance was him retweeting the proscribed terrorist group Britain First: although he claimed ignorance of their true nature: tbh I believe him on that one, but it’s still unnerving to have the US President help spread their agit-prop, even if in innocence.
Pepe wrote:
Karamazov wrote:
As far as higher military budgets go: well, I’d certainly prefer my countries to be a touch more (2.9% of GDP last time I checked, I think something more like 3.5% would be preferable)
Doubt his habit of commanding rather than requesting will produce it though.
Doubt his habit of commanding rather than requesting will produce it though.
So, do you think Nato, as a whole, has been taking advantage of America?
If they have, why would it be wrong for an American President to pull them into line?
I'm surprised you haven't mentioned the inherent *disrespect* the Europeans, as a whole, have been showing America.
Remember the incident where a group of leaders, at a social gathering, were snickering about Trump?
They looked like a bunch of kids ganging up on another kid.
That sort of behaviour is not exactly infused with integrity and maturity.
The inherent attitude of entitlement, of some in Europe, does more damage to them than Trump, from my perspective.
Well: I think many high ranking bods on this continent have the same attitude to US presidents as my late grandfather ”They’re all ignorant, rude, arrogant crooks: apart from the black one, he had manners.
Not exactly a great attitude for political leaders to have, you’re right: although it concerned me more that the footage was shot by a Russian agent here in Britain at what was meant to be a high-security event.

Why should Europeans pay out to aid the projection of US power if they’re no longer prepared to use it to ward off our principle regional threat? (Russia)
I will accept that from your perspective in Oz China is rightly the greater priority, and that some form of military-trading alliance specific to that threat is necessary... and this would probably mean the US according NATO lower priority... it’s not like we don’t have our own WMDs and so forth if we could but unify our military commands without US oversight.

As I’ve said: I think there’s potential for his rule to be good for us here in Europe, but entirely dependent on how our leaders proceed and most likely not in a way he himself would hope for.
Karamazov wrote:
shlaifu wrote:
Karamazov wrote:
The Beijing Politburo is, you’re right, primarily focused on building up China industrially, economically and diplomatically: but long-term they can’t do that without subverting the US centred global order as we know it, a process which I doubt would be a peaceable improvement for the global poor beyond the PRC’s borders.
(I’ve trimmed down the quote stack to avoid posting a huge repetitive chunk of grey borders)
(I’ve trimmed down the quote stack to avoid posting a huge repetitive chunk of grey borders)
That conversation between Gessen and Snyder is fantastic! Thank you for that.
There’s also a very interesting lecture by Snyder on Ivan Ilyin and Putin’s promotion of his works: I think that ones on IWM’s channel.
shlaifu wrote:
And: yeah, of course the change away from a US-controlled world to a multipolar world is painful, and violent.
But for a lot of the world, so was US-control. From shock-doctrine to the "war on drugs" in south America, to the support of middle eastern Royals and dictators, to the enforcing of free movement of capital anywhere on the globe, to the detriment of the local citizens, all to syphon of wealth to facilitate a global inequality that is simply unsustainable - and guess what, it's collapsing, with or without Chinese or Russian interference. They are actively trying to influence the outcome, but they are not the cause.
But for a lot of the world, so was US-control. From shock-doctrine to the "war on drugs" in south America, to the support of middle eastern Royals and dictators, to the enforcing of free movement of capital anywhere on the globe, to the detriment of the local citizens, all to syphon of wealth to facilitate a global inequality that is simply unsustainable - and guess what, it's collapsing, with or without Chinese or Russian interference. They are actively trying to influence the outcome, but they are not the cause.
Think “collapsing” might be an overstatement, but US power is certainly a relatively less significant force than it was during the presidency of Bush Snr.
I’ve read Klein too

I think she has a tendency to see “design” where I see “blinkered ideological bloody-mindedness”: that aside she makes many valid points about why US soft power has been a gradually less valuable political currency as the decades from ‘45 have worn on.
I wouldn’t regard her as having the entire story of course

Chile 1973 was designed. It's fair to think they tried this again and again.
Lenin's writings on imperialism have come true - what I mean eith collapsing is in that sense: a capitalist empire can only function as long as it's expanding, opening new markets for its overproduction. Remember: capitalism will always cause crises, and they are crises of overproduction.
Varoufakis, btw., Is also worth reading/listening to.
_________________
I can read facial expressions. I did the test.
Ihavestandardsjust
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: 5 Mar 2020
Gender: Male
Posts: 71
Location: A place that makes Westminster during Rush Hour seem Pleasant.
Pepe wrote:
Ihavestandardsjust wrote:
They all are some more superficially than others and also there's no such thing as the free world get you head out of the clouds.
You are new here, with only 36 posts under your belt, and you are poking the biggest, baddest top dog on this website?
I'm impressed.

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