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Pro-conscription should be banned

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Wolfram87
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01 Jun 2020, 2:59 pm

The way I see it, you're being evil right now. If I shot you dead right now, would it be justified? if not why not?


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Karamazov
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01 Jun 2020, 3:09 pm

Yeah... in politics “ends justify means” tends to lead to nowhere but darkness.
Regardless of the ends in view.



thinkinginpictures
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01 Jun 2020, 3:10 pm

Wolfram87 wrote:
The way I see it, you're being evil right now. If I shot you dead right now, would it be justified? if not why not?


No. Because I'm speaking the only moral truth.



Wolfram87
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01 Jun 2020, 3:15 pm

thinkinginpictures wrote:
No. Because I'm speaking the only moral truth.


...and how many genocides do you think were justified with those exact words?

Your new topic got deleted, by the way. you're really on an evil-roll today.


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Karamazov
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01 Jun 2020, 3:18 pm

thinkinginpictures wrote:
Wolfram87 wrote:
The way I see it, you're being evil right now. If I shot you dead right now, would it be justified? if not why not?


No. Because I'm speaking the only moral truth.


Pick one:
Humans exist to serve moral ideals.
Or
Moral ideals exist to help humans serve each other.



funeralxempire
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01 Jun 2020, 3:18 pm

thinkinginpictures wrote:
Wolfram87 wrote:
The way I see it, you're being evil right now. If I shot you dead right now, would it be justified? if not why not?


No. Because I'm speaking the only moral truth.


Since you're advocating people being harmed for thought crimes it's clear you haven't yet discovered moral truth.


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thinkinginpictures
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01 Jun 2020, 3:20 pm

Karamazov wrote:
Yeah... in politics “ends justify means” tends to lead to nowhere but darkness.
Regardless of the ends in view.


Not regardless of the ends.

The problem is that the only ones willing to use the phrase "ends justify means" have either been fascists, stalinists or religious fanatics from past to present.

What we need are a world leaders who are prepared to sacrifice democracy and freedom of speech, for the sake of humanitarian ends.

It may seem like a contradiction. But it's not. It's a neccessity.

Wolfram87 wrote:
...and how many genocides do you think were justified with those exact words?

Your new topic got deleted, by the way. you're really on an evil-roll today.


sorry, misread you question.
"originally: no genocides justified".

A lot of genocides were of course "justified", but not righteously.

We shouldn't have genocides.

And my recently deleted topic was deleted by myself.
- Because I realized its better to stick to one thread only for the same topic.



Wolfram87
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01 Jun 2020, 3:25 pm

Basically what you're saying here is that genocide can be a good thing, all the ones up to this point just haven't killed the right people.

When you make your end goal an impossible utopia, there is no limit for how many bodies and atrocities you can leave in your wake by referencing the prosperity of the countless future generations that you're securing. Except in the end, when you realize that utopia is an empty and impossible dream, the mountain of bodies doesn't go away.


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thinkinginpictures
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01 Jun 2020, 3:27 pm

Wolfram87 wrote:
Basically what you're saying here is that genocide can be a good thing, all the ones up to this point just haven't killed the right people.

When you make your end goal an impossible utopia, there is no limit for how many bodies and atrocities you can leave in your wake by referencing the prosperity of the countless future generations that you're securing. Except in the end, when you realize that utopia is an empty and impossible dream, the mountain of bodies doesn't go away.


And you don't think conscription "achieves" just that?
Violence, killings, endless wars etc.?

We can end violence and wars right here, right now, if we choose to jail anyone who wants to conscript anyone.



thinkinginpictures
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01 Jun 2020, 3:34 pm

Wolfram, do you never fear conscription?

If no, why not?

General mobilization can happen anytime. Autistics will be deprived of their disability benefits, people taken away from care centers and instead get conscripted. If they refuse, any country can execute draft dodgers.

Sweden is no exception. They can re-instate the death penalty anytime for anyone who cannot fight.
There's nothing to prevent any country from committing these attrocities.

That's my fears.



Wolfram87
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01 Jun 2020, 3:42 pm

thinkinginpictures wrote:
A lot of genocides were of course "justified", but not righteously.


Oh so they were justified, but they were wrong and you're right because you proclaim yourself to be "righteous"?
Your lack of self-awareness is staggering.


Quote:
What we need are a world leaders who are prepared to sacrifice democracy and freedom of speech, for the sake of humanitarian ends.


What if I told you that democracy and freedom of speech ARE humanitarian ends? But I guess I shouldn't be surprised that somoene who would invade someones mind and dole out punishment for what's in there if they only had the means doesn't understand that.


Quote:
We can end violence and wars right here, right now, if we choose to jail anyone who wants to conscript anyone.


We can stop wars by imposing tyranny. Great idea. Even assuming that you somehow managed to achieve this, people wouldn't accept it and would feel forced to fight against it. And suddenly you haven't "ended violence", so the whole idea collapses.


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Last edited by Wolfram87 on 01 Jun 2020, 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Wolfram87
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01 Jun 2020, 3:49 pm

thinkinginpictures wrote:
Wolfram, do you never fear conscription?

If no, why not?


First: conscription is unlikely because of how modern warfare has evolved. Large numbers of hastily trained conscripts aren't very useful compared to a standing professional army. But in the event of it happening, I would welcome it, because I think my country is worth defending and I'd want to do my part. I've considered joining the volunteer home guard multiple times.


Quote:
General mobilization can happen anytime. Autistics will be deprived of their disability benefits, people taken away from care centers and instead get conscripted. If they refuse, any country can execute draft dodgers.


Are you on any particular meds that have bad side effects? You seem to be suffering from some fears that just don't mesh onto reality.


Quote:
Sweden is no exception. They can re-instate the death penalty anytime for anyone who cannot fight.


No, they can't. Refusal is prison. Inability carries no punishment. Far as I know, the only thing that carries the death penalty is actively helping the enemy during wartime.


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01 Jun 2020, 3:51 pm

thinkinginpictures wrote:
It should be illegal to be in favor of conscription.

The state should never decide what to do with innocent people's bodies. My body is my body, your body is your body, and so long as you or me are not engaging in any activities that are illegal, the state should never tell us what to do/work with/live with/go to war.

You can tell what NOT to do. But NEVER tell WHAT to do!

That's why I've held this opinion of punishment to anyone who is pro-conscription.

I don't care whether those pro-conscription are from the right or left of the political spectrum.


Thought control?



thinkinginpictures
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01 Jun 2020, 3:52 pm

Wolfram87 wrote:
thinkinginpictures wrote:
A lot of genocides were of course "justified", but not righteously.


Oh so they were justified, but they were wrong and you're right because you proclaim yourself to be "righteous"?
Your lack of self-awareness is staggering.


As I also wrote, I may have misread (misunderstood) your question.
I thought you meant _I_ want to justify genocides. I don't want genocides.



kokopelli
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01 Jun 2020, 3:54 pm

Wolfram87 wrote:
thinkinginpictures wrote:
Wolfram, do you never fear conscription?

If no, why not?


First: conscription is unlikely because of how modern warfare has evolved. Large numbers of hastily trained conscripts aren't very useful compared to a standing professional army. But in the event of it happening, I would welcome it, because I think my country is worth defending and I'd want to do my part. I've considered joining the volunteer home guard multiple times.


This.

Also, today's modern army is too high tech for a draft. We need better quality of soldiers than what we needed in earlier wars. The days of needing large numbers of soldiers for cannon fodder are probably over.



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01 Jun 2020, 3:55 pm

vermontsavant wrote:
thinkinginpictures wrote:
It should be illegal to be in favor of conscription.

The state should never decide what to do with innocent people's bodies. My body is my body, your body is your body, and so long as you or me are not engaging in any activities that are illegal, the state should never tell us what to do/work with/live with/go to war.

You can tell what NOT to do. But NEVER tell WHAT to do!

That's why I've held this opinion of punishment to anyone who is pro-conscription.

I don't care whether those pro-conscription are from the right or left of the political spectrum. They aren't considered human beings in my opinion.
The only country I know of with conscription is Israel,we have not had the draft since Vietnam ended,what's your worry.Your on this website so your probably autistic,so they wouldn't draft you anyway,in the Vietnam era bad knees would get you out of the draft.


Future Presidents just need a bone spur to avoid the draft.