Board index › Topical Discussion › Politics, Philosophy, and Religion

Reaction to George Floyd murder a moral panic?

Page 3 of 5 [ 65 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

Previous topic | Next topic

funeralxempire
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 27 Oct 2014
Age: 41
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 34,202
Location: Right over your left shoulder

16 Jun 2020, 1:56 am

ironpony wrote:
I think that some people may have a very skewed point of view of how bad the police are though. The police do do a lot of good things, but the media doesn't report on them because they only want to report the bad things for headlines. Good news isn't worth reporting. So I think a lot of the good things they do is not being accounted for, in a lot of peoples eyes.


You mean the news doesn't cover when police do their jobs, it only covers when they do something horrific and criminal because the news doesn't cover every dog bites man story, but they love a man bites dog story?


_________________
The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. —Malcolm X
Just a reminder: under international law, an occupying power has no right of self-defense, and those who are occupied have the right and duty to liberate themselves by any means possible.


magz
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 1 Jun 2017
Age: 41
Gender: Female
Posts: 16,283
Location: Poland

16 Jun 2020, 3:33 am

The news don't cover well-built bridges, only the ones that collapse.
If a few bridges collapse in a short time, you go and check the remaining 99% for structural faults.
That does not mean all bridges are bad.
That does not mean you don't need bridges.
That may mean a lot of your bridges need thorough repair.
That may mean you have to close and rebuild some bridges to avoid more accidents in near future.


_________________
Let's not confuse being normal with being mentally healthy.

<not moderating PPR stuff concerning East Europe>


ironpony
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 3 Nov 2015
Age: 41
Posts: 5,590
Location: canada

16 Jun 2020, 12:14 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
ironpony wrote:
I think that some people may have a very skewed point of view of how bad the police are though. The police do do a lot of good things, but the media doesn't report on them because they only want to report the bad things for headlines. Good news isn't worth reporting. So I think a lot of the good things they do is not being accounted for, in a lot of peoples eyes.


You mean the news doesn't cover when police do their jobs, it only covers when they do something horrific and criminal because the news doesn't cover every dog bites man story, but they love a man bites dog story?


More or less.



funeralxempire
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 27 Oct 2014
Age: 41
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 34,202
Location: Right over your left shoulder

16 Jun 2020, 12:41 pm

ironpony wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
ironpony wrote:
I think that some people may have a very skewed point of view of how bad the police are though. The police do do a lot of good things, but the media doesn't report on them because they only want to report the bad things for headlines. Good news isn't worth reporting. So I think a lot of the good things they do is not being accounted for, in a lot of peoples eyes.


You mean the news doesn't cover when police do their jobs, it only covers when they do something horrific and criminal because the news doesn't cover every dog bites man story, but they love a man bites dog story?


More or less.


Sadly, in some communities these are the dog bites man stories; they've been telling us this for decades as society just kept dismissing their experiences as lies until video evidence started to regularly confirm some portion of those claims.


_________________
The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. —Malcolm X
Just a reminder: under international law, an occupying power has no right of self-defense, and those who are occupied have the right and duty to liberate themselves by any means possible.


ironpony
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 3 Nov 2015
Age: 41
Posts: 5,590
Location: canada

16 Jun 2020, 1:17 pm

But what I mean is, is that people need to acknowledge that the there are good police and bad, instead of a lot of them lately, wanting to defund because the majority is bad, which is not true. They only accept one kind of story it seems, rather than both.



funeralxempire
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 27 Oct 2014
Age: 41
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 34,202
Location: Right over your left shoulder

16 Jun 2020, 2:17 pm

ironpony wrote:
But what I mean is, is that people need to acknowledge that the there are good police and bad, instead of a lot of them lately, wanting to defund because the majority is bad, which is not true. They only accept one kind of story it seems, rather than both.


Or they'd prefer to stop overfunding police and then sending them to take care of non-police work that they're not very suitable for. Sending cops to do the job of not cops only escalates the situation, so taking money from the cops to fund more suitable forces to deal with those issues makes sense because when the cops aren't doing those jobs too you can have fewer cops.


_________________
The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. —Malcolm X
Just a reminder: under international law, an occupying power has no right of self-defense, and those who are occupied have the right and duty to liberate themselves by any means possible.


ironpony
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 3 Nov 2015
Age: 41
Posts: 5,590
Location: canada

16 Jun 2020, 2:45 pm

Oh okay, what would be situations where the police are being sent to do non-police work?



cyberdad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Age: 58
Gender: Male
Posts: 36,036

16 Jun 2020, 7:26 pm

ironpony has a point. I'm sure criminal gangs would be happily joining the marches to defund the police.



Bradleigh
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 May 2008
Age: 35
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 6,669
Location: Brisbane, Australia

16 Jun 2020, 7:51 pm

cyberdad wrote:
ironpony has a point. I'm sure criminal gangs would be happily joining the marches to defund the police.


And terrorists would cheer over the military getting less of an overblown budget.
But the thing you might find is that when a military does less aggressive bombing that kills civilians you will probably get less people becoming terrorists. So if you have less of an oppressive police force that brutalizes people and makes them feel less safe with their presence and over policing, you would likely get less gangs in the first place.


_________________
Through dream I travel, at lantern's call
To consume the flames of a kingdom's fall


funeralxempire
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 27 Oct 2014
Age: 41
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 34,202
Location: Right over your left shoulder

16 Jun 2020, 9:03 pm

ironpony wrote:
Oh okay, what would be situations where the police are being sent to do non-police work?


They respond to mental health calls, they respond to welfare checks, they respond to reports of disturbances that don't amount to criminal activity just for starters off of the top of my head.

Do you ever bother to research the arguments used to support positions you just make a kneejerk decision to oppose? If you bothered to look into what you believe you oppose you might discover that there's no good grounds on which to oppose it.


_________________
The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. —Malcolm X
Just a reminder: under international law, an occupying power has no right of self-defense, and those who are occupied have the right and duty to liberate themselves by any means possible.


funeralxempire
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 27 Oct 2014
Age: 41
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 34,202
Location: Right over your left shoulder

16 Jun 2020, 9:07 pm

cyberdad wrote:
ironpony has a point. I'm sure criminal gangs would be happily joining the marches to defund the police.


I'm sure a portion of people in criminal gangs would prefer to be able to participate in the above-ground economy but good luck with that if you've got a record.

Systemic racism contributes to the survival of organized crime in America, that's a big part of the reason why organized crime is dominated by ethnic groups that have faced substantial discrimination. People who have hopes of getting somewhere in life without having to risk that career will usually pick something else.(which generally doesn't pay minimum wage and is likely to get you killed in the long run) People who have options don't take sub-minimum wage jobs where getting arrested, robbed or killed are just part of the job.


_________________
The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. —Malcolm X
Just a reminder: under international law, an occupying power has no right of self-defense, and those who are occupied have the right and duty to liberate themselves by any means possible.


techstepgenr8tion
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Feb 2005
Age: 46
Gender: Male
Posts: 24,682
Location: 28th Path of Tzaddi

16 Jun 2020, 9:48 pm

cyberdad wrote:
ironpony has a point. I'm sure criminal gangs would be happily joining the marches to defund the police.

Yeah but I think this is a bit more like the notion that people are always hustling for money and like corporations seeing that they have a new frontier to exploit and once that frontier is marked open for business there's a run on it - same sort of thing for criminality when law goes away.

I think this is part of what confused Steven Pinker in his youthful anarchist days when he thought 'lol - the people I know wouldn't stop being good people just because there's no police!', and he changed his tune when he found out that it had nothing to do with that. Human economy's a bit like holding a liquid in a container where it takes the shape of that container, and then when you remove law order doesn't appear all at once but like ant scouts the most sociopathic start putting out their feelers to see what they can net in, they build trails for others to follow, and the thing snowballs into gangs and organized crime from there. In fact I'd say there's a lot this would have in common with removing all corporate regulations and seeing the carnage that would result from that.


_________________
The loneliest part of life: it's not just that no one is on your cloud, few can even see your cloud.


cyberdad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Age: 58
Gender: Male
Posts: 36,036

16 Jun 2020, 10:04 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Systemic racism contributes to the survival of organized crime in America, that's a big part of the reason why organized crime is dominated by ethnic groups that have faced substantial discrimination. P


This explains the rise of ethnic based criminal gangs in response to systemic racism but doesn't justify their persistence. In Australia as with the US and Canada it was originally Irish labor unions that were the recruiting ground for the criminal underworld. Later it was Italian and eastern European gangs and then finally Chinese, Indo-Chinese and black street gangs. All these groups formed in response to systemic obstacles but much of the original structures are no longer present but the gangs remain and their operations/activities like drug manufacturing and distribution are not in the best interests for the public.



cyberdad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Age: 58
Gender: Male
Posts: 36,036

16 Jun 2020, 10:08 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
I'm sure a portion of people in criminal gangs would prefer to be able to participate in the above-ground economy but good luck with that if you've got a record..


I think the Chinese and Russian gangs operate legitimate taxpaying businesses as fronts for their underworld activities.



Bradleigh
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 May 2008
Age: 35
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 6,669
Location: Brisbane, Australia

16 Jun 2020, 10:24 pm

cyberdad wrote:
All these groups formed in response to systemic obstacles but much of the original structures are no longer present but the gangs remain and their operations/activities like drug manufacturing and distribution are not in the best interests for the public.


I am sure the same was said during prohibition in regards to alcohol that saw the rise in organize crime for underground alcohol smuggling, when something is allowed and regulated it actually gives less chance for criminal organizations to build themselves around getting that. Hard drugs are more of a questionable thing, ones that can cause a lot of negative lasting side effects that you see in something like Breaking Bad, but most studies show that marijuana is hardly the danger that they tried to pretend it was in the past, which you saw some criminal gangs build themselves around growing and distribution. That would be one way to prevent the creation of dangerous gangs.

Things like drug wars can even have negative effects where you will see criminal organizations arm themselves up and be much more threatening because they would want to be scarier than the scary police. This is not really a simple topic, I think the best things to do is maker certain things like drugs and the sex trade legal and regulated, while I think that firearms would be something more of a hardline with certain pathways within reason. An unregulated industry can really be just as bad as gang.


_________________
Through dream I travel, at lantern's call
To consume the flames of a kingdom's fall


ironpony
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 3 Nov 2015
Age: 41
Posts: 5,590
Location: canada

16 Jun 2020, 10:31 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
ironpony wrote:
Oh okay, what would be situations where the police are being sent to do non-police work?


They respond to mental health calls, they respond to welfare checks, they respond to reports of disturbances that don't amount to criminal activity just for starters off of the top of my head.

Do you ever bother to research the arguments used to support positions you just make a kneejerk decision to oppose? If you bothered to look into what you believe you oppose you might discover that there's no good grounds on which to oppose it.


Oh well, it's just when I read about their demands, they don't really go into detail. All they say in the video footage of the protests is that they want to defund the police so I wasn't sure on what they meant in detail.

So if the police would not be doing wellfare checks, or mental health calls, who would do that instead?