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naturalplastic
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30 Jun 2020, 2:10 pm

magz wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
That might be a factor. In the case of less democratic societies there was a higher likelihood that a member of the old money/power class might have mixed ancestry reflecting the norms early on when few women of European descent made the journey.

For a number of reasons parts of the US had more women of European descent available and therefore had fewer mixed people, even when that society was attached to a more typical colonial society (like the US north and south) this laid the groundwork for ethnic background to dominate the concept of race, whereas in Latin America race and class identities tended to merge a bit more. Among things, this meant that poor whites had no reason to try to preserve their kids 'whiteness', rich 'whites' could be not entirely white and still count and that it would be much harder to establish 'white only' parts of society. Even in practice, white supremacists in Latin America are more likely to care about 'whitening' society than 'segregating'.

In a lot of colonial societies white men were expected to 'assimilate' their families into white society and when they chose not to they were ostracized and treated with the same racist contempt as their brothers-in-law.

That gave me another thought: it's all about post-colonial societes - mainly Americas and Australia, also South Africa, I think - where, for various reasons, indigenous population was sparse at the time of colonisation.
East Asia, as a counter-example, developed quite different attitudes, often including isolationism. India has so many strong internal divisions that Europeans are... just another group in its already complicated society.

I'm trying to kind of relate all the hot topics to my experience and see where the culture and history close to me fit within the bigger picture. I feel quite off-center, it's often hard to relate some Western concepts to East European realities. I think the West, USA in particular, is often guilty of attributing universality to their culture and issues.


Yes. The US parades it's dirty linen across the globe because we dominate media and pop culture of the globe. So our issues become everyone's issues. Whether others can relate or not. Lol!



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30 Jun 2020, 2:11 pm

vermontsavant wrote:
You may be right about north Slavs but south Slavs or Yugo Slavs tend to be hung up on religion and don't exactly get along.There doesn't seem to be any love lost between Orthodoxy in Serbia and Montenegro vs. catholic Croats and the muslims in Bosnia and parts of Kosovo and Albania.They have 600 year history of burning each others houses down.


For what it's worth my knowledge of the relations between the Yugoslavian ethnic groups based on reading is in complete odds to my experience seeing groups of ethnically mixed Yugoslavian immigrants in Mimico and KW.

Apparently once they're outside of the lands they've been fighting over for over a thousand years they get along fine. To be fair many of them also described parents who were nostalgic for Yugoslavia's existence and weren't outspoken nationalists.


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30 Jun 2020, 2:12 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Yes. The US parades it's dirty linen across the globe because we dominate media and pop culture of the globe. So our issues become everyone's issues. Whether others can relate or not. Lol!


There's lots of costs that come with hegemony. 8)


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Just a reminder: under international law, an occupying power has no right of self-defense, and those who are occupied have the right and duty to liberate themselves by any means possible.


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30 Jun 2020, 2:27 pm

vermontsavant wrote:
magz wrote:
After discussing the topic a lot, I realized something about myself: the very concept of race, while well-known, is largely absent in my culture. Slavs traditionally define one's ethnicity by their language, not ancestry - so a Russian is not a Pole despite indistinguishable genetics but if a child of any ancestry grows up in Poland and speaks Polish as their first language, they is Polish.
That may, by the way, explain another phenomenon - a difference on how people react to correcting their language between Polish and English fora. But that's another topic.

This tendency makes Slavic nations ready to assimilate any minority willing to assimilate - including e.g. Bulgars being Turkish by ancestry but Slavic by language and culture. In central Europe, people tend to be descendants of those who lived here for millenia mixed with all the waves of immigration that happened since ancient times.

It was a bit strange to me that, according to Wikipedia, only 3% of North America identify as multiracial - compared to, e.g. over 40% of Brazil citizens, another big country with a history of black slavery, where some regions have over 80% of mixed-race inhabitants.
For some reason, Africans and Europeans did mix in Brazil but not in the US.

One possible explanation I could think of: As Slavs tend to pay the most attention to one's language, the Spanish and Portuguese tend to pay more attention to one's religion than ancestry. That helped the infamous Spanish Inquisition emerge but it also resulted in ex-slaves and indigenous Americans becoming marriageable after accepting Catholicism.

That were my thougths on the topic... how do you see it?
You may be right about north Slavs but south Slavs or Yugo Slavs tend to be hung up on religion and don't exactly get along.There doesn't seem to be any love lost between Orthodoxy in Serbia and Montenegro vs. catholic Croats and the muslims in Bosnia and parts of Kosovo and Albania.They have 600 year history of burning each others houses down.

Poles and Russians don't love each other too, despite both being Slavs - I never claimed using any language from Slavic family makes us one big family, just a tradition of identifying ethnicity with language.
Balkans are complicated in general but their muslim population there uses a non-slavic Albanian. When it comes to Serbs and Croats, I look at Wikipedia:
Quote:
With the nation-building process in the mid-19th century, first Croatian–Serbian tension appeared. Serbian minister Ilija Garašanin's Načertanije (1844) claimed lands that were inhabited by Bulgarians, Macedonians, Albanians, Montenegrins, Bosnians, Hungarians and Croats as part of a Greater Serbia.[5] Garašanin's plan also includes methods of spreading Serbian influence in the claimed lands.[5] He proposed ways to influence Croats, who Garašanin regarded as "Serbs of Catholic faith".[5] This plan considered surrounding peoples to be devoid of national consciousness.[5][6] Vuk Karadžić partly denied the existence of Croatians and Croatian language, counting them as "Catholic Serbs" except those who speak Chakavian dialect.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatia%E ... _relations
Apparently, the language issue was present in this story - both to claim unity to call Croats "catholic Serbs" and to claim distinction by Croats who viewed themselves as a separate nation.


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30 Jun 2020, 2:54 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
It's definitely fair to consider that racial concepts aren't consistent across cultures.

For what it's worth, you might want to look up the concepts of Anglo-Indian vs. Eurasian in Indian culture. Both have mixed heritage, but one is considered more 'westernized' than the other.
I would guess "Eurasian" to be a broader term, possibly including other European and Asian heritages, say, Russian-Pakistani - while Wikipedia gives quite precise traditional definition of Anglo-Indian:
Quote:
The All India Anglo-Indian Association, founded in 1926, has long represented the interests of the ethnic group; it holds that Anglo-Indians are unique in that they are Christians, speak English as their mother tongue, as well as have a historical link to both Europe and India.[5] Anglo-Indians tend to identify as people of India, rather than of a specific region of India such as the Punjab or Bengal.[5]


funeralxempire wrote:
In some ways Poland's history might share more in common with other colonized states, with Prussians, Austro-Hungarians and Russians as the colonial powers. Poland and Ireland both benefited from Europe's colonial period (Ireland more than Poland), but both also suffered due to colonialism as well. To be fair, the Russian Empire was quite brutal even for ethnic Russians, but that said, one could still claim 'Russian privilege' existed within the Russian Empire. The benefits of being connected to an economy that was being stimulated by colonial theft might not have outweighed the costs of English or Russian domination (I'm not saying they did or that they didn't since two massive things probably can't cancel each other out even if they exist alongside each other), but both did exist.
The Polish-Russian relationship in the 19th century was mostly hostile on cultural and (of course) political level but quite open on economical and career level, from what I understand. Two of my great-great-grandparents were mixed ancestry, Eastern Orthodox and identified as Polish... which, I guess, sheds some light on level of complication of things in real life.

funeralxempire wrote:
As for indigenous peoples being sparse, that wasn't true when the very first contacts were made, but as a wave of disease spread out in front of the invaders it meant they often were encountering societies that were collapsing due to epidemics. Spanish sources especially regularly describe densely populated cities. There's evidence that the US south-east was far more densely populated than colonial sources ever documented.

Often our deaths as a result of these epidemics are treated as justification for stealing our homelands but since when did your neighbour not using his basement entitle you to move a dozen relatives into his house? How long do I need to possess your car before it becomes my car? They're little more than terrible excuses for terrible injustices.

I definitely won't use it as any kind of justification, just as a part of dynamics leading to colonial states ethnically dominated by the newcomers and then further development of culture in such a place.


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30 Jun 2020, 3:33 pm

magz wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
magz wrote:
After discussing the topic a lot, I realized something about myself: the very concept of race, while well-known, is largely absent in my culture. Slavs traditionally define one's ethnicity by their language, not ancestry - so a Russian is not a Pole despite indistinguishable genetics but if a child of any ancestry grows up in Poland and speaks Polish as their first language, they is Polish.
That may, by the way, explain another phenomenon - a difference on how people react to correcting their language between Polish and English fora. But that's another topic.

This tendency makes Slavic nations ready to assimilate any minority willing to assimilate - including e.g. Bulgars being Turkish by ancestry but Slavic by language and culture. In central Europe, people tend to be descendants of those who lived here for millenia mixed with all the waves of immigration that happened since ancient times.

It was a bit strange to me that, according to Wikipedia, only 3% of North America identify as multiracial - compared to, e.g. over 40% of Brazil citizens, another big country with a history of black slavery, where some regions have over 80% of mixed-race inhabitants.
For some reason, Africans and Europeans did mix in Brazil but not in the US.

One possible explanation I could think of: As Slavs tend to pay the most attention to one's language, the Spanish and Portuguese tend to pay more attention to one's religion than ancestry. That helped the infamous Spanish Inquisition emerge but it also resulted in ex-slaves and indigenous Americans becoming marriageable after accepting Catholicism.

That were my thougths on the topic... how do you see it?
You may be right about north Slavs but south Slavs or Yugo Slavs tend to be hung up on religion and don't exactly get along.There doesn't seem to be any love lost between Orthodoxy in Serbia and Montenegro vs. catholic Croats and the muslims in Bosnia and parts of Kosovo and Albania.They have 600 year history of burning each others houses down.

Poles and Russians don't love each other too, despite both being Slavs - I never claimed using any language from Slavic family makes us one big family, just a tradition of identifying ethnicity with language.
Balkans are complicated in general but their muslim population there uses a non-slavic Albanian. When it comes to Serbs and Croats, I look at Wikipedia:
Quote:
With the nation-building process in the mid-19th century, first Croatian–Serbian tension appeared. Serbian minister Ilija Garašanin's Načertanije (1844) claimed lands that were inhabited by Bulgarians, Macedonians, Albanians, Montenegrins, Bosnians, Hungarians and Croats as part of a Greater Serbia.[5] Garašanin's plan also includes methods of spreading Serbian influence in the claimed lands.[5] He proposed ways to influence Croats, who Garašanin regarded as "Serbs of Catholic faith".[5] This plan considered surrounding peoples to be devoid of national consciousness.[5][6] Vuk Karadžić partly denied the existence of Croatians and Croatian language, counting them as "Catholic Serbs" except those who speak Chakavian dialect.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatia%E ... _relations
Apparently, the language issue was present in this story - both to claim unity to call Croats "catholic Serbs" and to claim distinction by Croats who viewed themselves as a separate nation.
The history of the Balkans is to complex to be addressed in this thread,that's a thread in and of it self.Which we should have done two days ago being that was St.Vitus day June 28th


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30 Jun 2020, 4:17 pm

magz wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
It's definitely fair to consider that racial concepts aren't consistent across cultures.

For what it's worth, you might want to look up the concepts of Anglo-Indian vs. Eurasian in Indian culture. Both have mixed heritage, but one is considered more 'westernized' than the other.
I would guess "Eurasian" to be a broader term, possibly including other European and Asian heritages, say, Russian-Pakistani - while Wikipedia gives quite precise traditional definition of Anglo-Indian:
Quote:
The All India Anglo-Indian Association, founded in 1926, has long represented the interests of the ethnic group; it holds that Anglo-Indians are unique in that they are Christians, speak English as their mother tongue, as well as have a historical link to both Europe and India.[5] Anglo-Indians tend to identify as people of India, rather than of a specific region of India such as the Punjab or Bengal.[5]


Historically Eurasian implied a white mother and Indian father, while Anglo-Indian was reserved for those with an English/Scottish/Irish father and an Indian mother. It was assumed that Anglo-Indians would be more sympathetic to Imperial interests and they tended to receive favourable treatment in various contexts.

magz wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
In some ways Poland's history might share more in common with other colonized states, with Prussians, Austro-Hungarians and Russians as the colonial powers. Poland and Ireland both benefited from Europe's colonial period (Ireland more than Poland), but both also suffered due to colonialism as well. To be fair, the Russian Empire was quite brutal even for ethnic Russians, but that said, one could still claim 'Russian privilege' existed within the Russian Empire. The benefits of being connected to an economy that was being stimulated by colonial theft might not have outweighed the costs of English or Russian domination (I'm not saying they did or that they didn't since two massive things probably can't cancel each other out even if they exist alongside each other), but both did exist.
The Polish-Russian relationship in the 19th century was mostly hostile on cultural and (of course) political level but quite open on economical and career level, from what I understand. Two of my great-great-grandparents were mixed ancestry, Eastern Orthodox and identified as Polish... which, I guess, sheds some light on level of complication of things in real life.


That's interesting, there's a general trend that emerges the more I read about colonialism in different regions, which is that most people just want to get along and live their lives (even among peoples with documented histories of long-standing, severe ethnic biases). Most people need some sort of stressor before that dynamic starts to break down.

magz wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
As for indigenous peoples being sparse, that wasn't true when the very first contacts were made, but as a wave of disease spread out in front of the invaders it meant they often were encountering societies that were collapsing due to epidemics. Spanish sources especially regularly describe densely populated cities. There's evidence that the US south-east was far more densely populated than colonial sources ever documented.

Often our deaths as a result of these epidemics are treated as justification for stealing our homelands but since when did your neighbour not using his basement entitle you to move a dozen relatives into his house? How long do I need to possess your car before it becomes my car? They're little more than terrible excuses for terrible injustices.

I definitely won't use it as any kind of justification, just as a part of dynamics leading to colonial states ethnically dominated by the newcomers and then further development of culture in such a place.


My apologies, I didn't mean to say that you're personally accepting that as 'just part of how things go', more that that's the standard 'politically correct' way that issue is framed when history is taught here. Indigenous history (and black history) get minimized to avoid all of the inconvenient issues that would be raised alongside those perspectives. To be fair, our perspectives tend to be overlooked as inconvenient, offensive and radical. It's still pretty radical for white liberals to say they want to hear our perspectives and then actually mean it. :lol:


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Just a reminder: under international law, an occupying power has no right of self-defense, and those who are occupied have the right and duty to liberate themselves by any means possible.


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30 Jun 2020, 6:30 pm

Fnord wrote:
Bradleigh wrote:
From what I know, race is actually a social construct...
"Race" is to "Human" what "Breed" is to "Dog".

Try telling a dog owner that "chihuahua" and "mastiff" are just social constructs and that all dogs are really the same.


:lol:

Great analogy. :thumright:



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30 Jun 2020, 6:40 pm

Fnord wrote:
All of this is why I prefer the all-encompassing term "Human Species".


I like to add the emotional qualifier of " :eew: " when referring to "The Naked Ape".

So:
The Human Species, :eew:
:wink:



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30 Jun 2020, 6:45 pm

Sometimes I like to type my posts using Cockney Rhyming Slang for obvious reasons.


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30 Jun 2020, 6:58 pm

magz wrote:
That gave me another thought: it's all about post-colonial societes - mainly Americas and Australia, also South Africa, I think - where, for various reasons, indigenous population was sparse at the time of colonisation.
East Asia, as a counter-example, developed quite different attitudes, often including isolationism. India has so many strong internal divisions that Europeans are... just another group in its already complicated society.


Australia is becoming more culturally fractured, these days.
As I mentioned earlier, migrants tended to have a desire to assimilate into the Australian culture, just after WWII, with their descendants embracing the Australian way of life.
I am one such example.

These days, many immigrants seem to have an attitude of entitlement, rather than accepting it is a "Privilege" in being part of Australian society.

I use the analogy:
You invite someone in to share your house.
They then barricade the entrance to their room,
And declare it to be "Chop", or "Chaz".

Immigration is not the problem here.
It is the immigration of an unhealthy attitude, that can come with immigration, which is the social destabilising factor.



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30 Jun 2020, 7:07 pm

Pepe wrote:
I use the analogy:
You invite someone in to share your house.
They then barricade the entrance to their room,
And declare it to be "Chop", or "Chaz".


Is CHOP or CHAZ majority recent immigrants, or majority people who have been US citizens for generations?


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Just a reminder: under international law, an occupying power has no right of self-defense, and those who are occupied have the right and duty to liberate themselves by any means possible.


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01 Jul 2020, 2:20 am

Pepe wrote:
Australia is becoming more culturally fractured, these days.
As I mentioned earlier, migrants tended to have a desire to assimilate into the Australian culture, just after WWII, with their descendants embracing the Australian way of life.
I am one such example.

These days, many immigrants seem to have an attitude of entitlement, rather than accepting it is a "Privilege" in being part of Australian society.

I use the analogy:
You invite someone in to share your house.
They then barricade the entrance to their room,
And declare it to be "Chop", or "Chaz".

Immigration is not the problem here.
It is the immigration of an unhealthy attitude, that can come with immigration, which is the social destabilising factor.


I think that you would have found the native born Australians made the exact same sort of complaints against migrants then as they do now. Complaining that they were not assimilating in how the "real Australians" should act, with their cultural foods, funny accents and attitudes like they own the place. Not to mention things like the White Australian policy.

But those people look ridiculous now, Australia as a whole changed. You saw new cultural creations that were mixes of blending the old ones together and a new harmony. Those who refuse to accept cultural diversity because all Australians need to go to barbies and have a very specific way of socialising just create a larger cultural divide that will actually make things worse. If you want to see them all blend, be open and not treat Asians or Muslims as like they are something gawk at and yell at them to go back to where they came from.

I am sure that you appreciate that, Pepe.


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01 Jul 2020, 5:36 am

funeralxempire wrote:
Historically Eurasian implied a white mother and Indian father, while Anglo-Indian was reserved for those with an English/Scottish/Irish father and an Indian mother. It was assumed that Anglo-Indians would be more sympathetic to Imperial interests and they tended to receive favourable treatment in various contexts.
Quite unlike the children of Black American mothers and White American fathers.

funeralxempire wrote:
magz wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
In some ways Poland's history might share more in common with other colonized states, with Prussians, Austro-Hungarians and Russians as the colonial powers. Poland and Ireland both benefited from Europe's colonial period (Ireland more than Poland), but both also suffered due to colonialism as well. To be fair, the Russian Empire was quite brutal even for ethnic Russians, but that said, one could still claim 'Russian privilege' existed within the Russian Empire. The benefits of being connected to an economy that was being stimulated by colonial theft might not have outweighed the costs of English or Russian domination (I'm not saying they did or that they didn't since two massive things probably can't cancel each other out even if they exist alongside each other), but both did exist.
The Polish-Russian relationship in the 19th century was mostly hostile on cultural and (of course) political level but quite open on economical and career level, from what I understand. Two of my great-great-grandparents were mixed ancestry, Eastern Orthodox and identified as Polish... which, I guess, sheds some light on level of complication of things in real life.
That's interesting, there's a general trend that emerges the more I read about colonialism in different regions, which is that most people just want to get along and live their lives (even among peoples with documented histories of long-standing, severe ethnic biases). Most people need some sort of stressor before that dynamic starts to break down.
I don't think we can really use the word "colonialism" in Polish-Russian relations. Conquer, yes, but it's not really a "colony" when two nations have been in contact since their very emergence. A lot of culture is shared, phenotypes are indistinguishable, the main differences are in language and political culture.

funeralxempire wrote:
magz wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
As for indigenous peoples being sparse, that wasn't true when the very first contacts were made, but as a wave of disease spread out in front of the invaders it meant they often were encountering societies that were collapsing due to epidemics. Spanish sources especially regularly describe densely populated cities. There's evidence that the US south-east was far more densely populated than colonial sources ever documented.

Often our deaths as a result of these epidemics are treated as justification for stealing our homelands but since when did your neighbour not using his basement entitle you to move a dozen relatives into his house? How long do I need to possess your car before it becomes my car? They're little more than terrible excuses for terrible injustices.
I definitely won't use it as any kind of justification, just as a part of dynamics leading to colonial states ethnically dominated by the newcomers and then further development of culture in such a place.
My apologies, I didn't mean to say that you're personally accepting that as 'just part of how things go', more that that's the standard 'politically correct' way that issue is framed when history is taught here. Indigenous history (and black history) get minimized to avoid all of the inconvenient issues that would be raised alongside those perspectives. To be fair, our perspectives tend to be overlooked as inconvenient, offensive and radical. It's still pretty radical for white liberals to say they want to hear our perspectives and then actually mean it. :lol:

Are you and Amerindian? I'm not a radical liberal but I'm totally willing to listen!

In 19th century Polish literature, sufferings of Indigenous Americans were often used as a camouflaged allegory of sufferings of Poles, to trick censorship. That probably made us traditionally more sympathetic towards the First Nations, which is continuously present in our popular literature - including authors like Cejrowski, a hardcore right-winger, writing about his encounters with Amazonian tribes, sympathising with them and defending their point of view.
From what I learned reading Wikipedia, colonization of North America included several crimes against humanity and plenty of more subtle assholeness - like Canadian indigenous laws that one loses for... finishing a high school - which is practically preventing constructive synthesis of Amerindian culture and modern civilisation!


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01 Jul 2020, 5:52 am

funeralxempire wrote:
Pepe wrote:
I use the analogy:
You invite someone in to share your house.
They then barricade the entrance to their room,
And declare it to be "Chop", or "Chaz".


Is CHOP or CHAZ majority recent immigrants, or majority people who have been US citizens for generations?


What?
I am assuming you are being argumentative.
Not interested ,
Thanks very much.

And I like discussions,
Rather than arguments/debates.
I prefer mutual growth.

What is wrong with you lefties?



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01 Jul 2020, 5:53 am

Bradleigh wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Australia is becoming more culturally fractured, these days.
As I mentioned earlier, migrants tended to have a desire to assimilate into the Australian culture, just after WWII, with their descendants embracing the Australian way of life.
I am one such example.

These days, many immigrants seem to have an attitude of entitlement, rather than accepting it is a "Privilege" in being part of Australian society.

I use the analogy:
You invite someone in to share your house.
They then barricade the entrance to their room,
And declare it to be "Chop", or "Chaz".

Immigration is not the problem here.
It is the immigration of an unhealthy attitude, that can come with immigration, which is the social destabilising factor.


I think that you would have found the native born Australians made the exact same sort of complaints against migrants then as they do now. Complaining that they were not assimilating in how the "real Australians" should act, with their cultural foods, funny accents and attitudes like they own the place. Not to mention things like the White Australian policy.

But those people look ridiculous now, Australia as a whole changed. You saw new cultural creations that were mixes of blending the old ones together and a new harmony. Those who refuse to accept cultural diversity because all Australians need to go to barbies and have a very specific way of socialising just create a larger cultural divide that will actually make things worse. If you want to see them all blend, be open and not treat Asians or Muslims as like they are something gawk at and yell at them to go back to where they came from.

I am sure that you appreciate that, Pepe.


See my previous post. :roll: