16 Dec 2020, 1:03 pm
16 Dec 2020, 1:28 pm
envirozentinel wrote:
If we're indeed made "in his image" why does he seem to think so vastly differently from us?
Because God's mind is infinite compared to our finite minds & God's mind has the attributes of being infinitely pure and infinitely holy while our minds as well as being finite are contaminated by the poison of sin. envirozentinel wrote:
Especially in the Old Testament. For instance, contradictory statements "do not kill" against injunctions to "mercifully" kill all the men, women, kids, animals etc in some places. And that's just a start.
Actually, in the commandment murder is the more accurate modern English word than kill, https://biblehub.com/exodus/20-13.htm
See also the commentary at bottom of the page.
And Jesus is understood to have understood the commandment as referring to murder, https://biblehub.com/matthew/5-21.htm
Contamination fits in there too.
And that killing of all life in a place is a result of a thing in Genesis that some people reject because of reasons such as "it just sounds too science-fictiony".
The basis is in Genesis 3 after the fall in to sin in the Garden of Eden.
Where God says,
Quote:
14 The LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, Cursed are you more than all cattle, And more than every beast of the field; On your belly you will go, And dust you will eat All the days of your life;
15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise (some translations use crush) you on the head, And you shall bruise (some translations use strike) him on the heel."
15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise (some translations use crush) you on the head, And you shall bruise (some translations use strike) him on the heel."
That in Genesis 3 verse 15 is seen as a forecast of the birth, crucifixion, death, and resurrection, of Jesus.
With the serpent/Satan will "strike his heel" being seen as referring to Jesus' death and burial.
And the "he will crush your head" referring to Jesus' victory over death via the resurrection & referring to Jesus' eventual judgement of the serpent/Satan and consignment of that being to the eternal lake of fire.
Here is a commentary on that, https://www.bibleref.com/Genesis/3/Genesis-3-15.html
While the coming of Jesus which is celebrated at the soon to arrive Christmas is his appearance in which he offers salvation and redemption to all who will accept and believe, he will eventually return to judge Satan and the world and me and everyone else. He several times in his first appearance in this world made either direct or indirect reference to that dual function,
https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/John/5/30
https://biblehub.com/john/9-39.htm
There is belief which goes from the Genesis 3 point to say that since as a result of God's declaration there Satan knew that eventually an offspring of the woman would bring redemption to humanity it was in Satan's best interest to corrupt the genetics of humans enough to render that birth of a redeemer not possible.
The next step in that effort is seen as Genesis 6 referring to fallen angels corrupting the genetics of humanity via impregnating human women who then had not fully human offspring & also the genetic corruption of all other forms of life.
Genesis 6 is taken as referring to that, just before the account of Noah and the flood, where this explains why the flood;
Quote:
1 Now when men began to multiply on the face of the earth and daughters were born to them,
2the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they took as wives whomever they chose.
3 So the LORD said, “My Spirit will not contend with man forever,a for he is mortal; his days shall be 120 years.”
4The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and afterward as well—when the sons of God had relations with the daughters of men. And they bore them children who became the mighty men of old, men of renown.
2the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they took as wives whomever they chose.
3 So the LORD said, “My Spirit will not contend with man forever,a for he is mortal; his days shall be 120 years.”
4The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and afterward as well—when the sons of God had relations with the daughters of men. And they bore them children who became the mighty men of old, men of renown.
And in the New Testament there is, in at least Matthew, a quote of Jesus which is taken as him referring to that situation being factually true,
Quote:
36 No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,g but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark. 39 And they were oblivious, until the flood came and swept them all away. So will it be at the coming of the Son of Man.
Now, where the Genesis 6 material says, "4The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and afterward as well—"
That is taken as literally referring to the taken as literal giants referred to by the spies sent in to the promised land by Moses and Joshua at the end of the Exodus period,
From Numbers 13, I'll leave out the list of names,
Quote:
13 The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Send men to explore Canaan, which I’m giving to the Israelites. Send one leader from each of their ancestors’ tribes.”
3 So at the Lord’s command, Moses sent these men from the Desert of Paran. All of them were leaders of the Israelites.
4 These are their names:
...
5 Forty days later, they came back from exploring the land. 26 They came back to Moses, Aaron, and the whole community of Israel at Kadesh in the Desert of Paran. They gave their report and showed them the fruit from the land.
27 This is what they reported to Moses: “We went to the land where you sent us. It really is a land flowing with milk and honey. Here’s some of its fruit. 28 But the people who live there are strong, and the cities have walls and are very large. We even saw the descendants of Anak there. 29 The Amalekites live in the Negev. The Hittites, Jebusites, and Amorites live in the mountain region. And the Canaanites live along the coast of the Mediterranean Sea and all along the Jordan River.”
30 Caleb told the people to be quiet and listen to Moses. Caleb said, “Let’s go now and take possession of the land. We should be more than able to conquer it.”
31 But the men who had gone with him said, “We can’t attack those people! They’re too strong for us!” 32 So they began to spread lies among the Israelites about the land they had explored. They said, “The land we explored is one that devours those who live there. All the people we saw there are very tall. 33 We saw Nephilim there. (The descendants of Anak are Nephilim.) We felt as small as grasshoppers, and that’s how we must have looked to them.”
3 So at the Lord’s command, Moses sent these men from the Desert of Paran. All of them were leaders of the Israelites.
4 These are their names:
...
5 Forty days later, they came back from exploring the land. 26 They came back to Moses, Aaron, and the whole community of Israel at Kadesh in the Desert of Paran. They gave their report and showed them the fruit from the land.
27 This is what they reported to Moses: “We went to the land where you sent us. It really is a land flowing with milk and honey. Here’s some of its fruit. 28 But the people who live there are strong, and the cities have walls and are very large. We even saw the descendants of Anak there. 29 The Amalekites live in the Negev. The Hittites, Jebusites, and Amorites live in the mountain region. And the Canaanites live along the coast of the Mediterranean Sea and all along the Jordan River.”
30 Caleb told the people to be quiet and listen to Moses. Caleb said, “Let’s go now and take possession of the land. We should be more than able to conquer it.”
31 But the men who had gone with him said, “We can’t attack those people! They’re too strong for us!” 32 So they began to spread lies among the Israelites about the land they had explored. They said, “The land we explored is one that devours those who live there. All the people we saw there are very tall. 33 We saw Nephilim there. (The descendants of Anak are Nephilim.) We felt as small as grasshoppers, and that’s how we must have looked to them.”
So, because the people who lived in the area and all other life there were the products of the genetic corruption, which was inextricably entangled with un-redeemable spiritual and moral corruption, God gave the order for the Hebrews/Israelites to kill all the corrupted life.And that they at least once did not follow the order continued to cause trouble for their nation throughout Old Testament times.
16 Dec 2020, 1:32 pm
AngelRho
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16 Dec 2020, 1:35 pm
AngelRho
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16 Dec 2020, 1:39 pm
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16 Dec 2020, 3:18 pm
AngelRho
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16 Dec 2020, 3:40 pm
kitesandtrainsandcats wrote:
Udinaas wrote:
You're equivocating by using the word "sin" to refer to both the behavior and the substance that the behavior creates.
I disagree about equivocating.
And yes, I am referring to both substance and behavior.
Quote:
verb
gerund or present participle: equivocating
use ambiguous language so as to conceal the truth or avoid committing oneself.
gerund or present participle: equivocating
use ambiguous language so as to conceal the truth or avoid committing oneself.
I am not being ambiguous, I am saying outright and definitely that the Biblical statement is that sin has affected both the material of this world and the behavior of we who live in it.
And the affected material and the affected behavior are fully intertwined, entangled, enmeshed.
We have a heart/mind/soul/spirit which is affected by sin.
We have bodies which are made of the minerals from a sin-affected planet.
This entire system is saturated with sin in both its material and mental/behavioral parts.
Even the unthinking physical behavior of the merely material world is affected by, even controlled by, sin.
Quote:
Secondly, the environment was cursed through sin. The punishment of Genesis 3:17–18 reveals that man’s sin caused the curse against the ground, resulting in the troublesome thorns and thistles and a change in the way the natural world works (Romans 8:19–22). The ground was cursed not only in the garden of Eden, from which Adam was taken. It was also cursed outside of it throughout the whole earth.
Quote:
When the first people sinned, they sent the good world God made into a tailspin. The Bible says that the world was subjected to futility, which means that brokenness is the default setting. And we see the evidence of this all around us:
The fact that light from the sun puts us at risk of cancer.
That rivers, lakes, and oceans turn chaotic and deadly whenever a storm begins.
That earthquakes level homes and occasionally move entire nations. Droughts, tornadoes, wildfires…
All of this is the result of sin’s presence in the world.
The fact that light from the sun puts us at risk of cancer.
That rivers, lakes, and oceans turn chaotic and deadly whenever a storm begins.
That earthquakes level homes and occasionally move entire nations. Droughts, tornadoes, wildfires…
All of this is the result of sin’s presence in the world.
https://www.gospelproject.com/sin-effect-world/
Here, the entangling of the material and the spirit evidenced by the use of "flesh" to refer simultaneously to both material and spiritual, because in our life and be-ing as humans the material and spiritual are both at the same time different and combined in to one.
Quote:
Berean Study Bible
Walking by the Spirit
(Ezekiel 36:16–38; Galatians 5:16–26)
1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.a 2For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set youb free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin.c He thus condemned sin in the flesh, 4so that the righteous standard of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5Those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace, 7because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8Those controlled by the fleshd cannot please God.
9You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alivee because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the deadf will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit, who lives in you.
https://biblehub.com/bsb/romans/8.htmWalking by the Spirit
(Ezekiel 36:16–38; Galatians 5:16–26)
1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.a 2For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set youb free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin.c He thus condemned sin in the flesh, 4so that the righteous standard of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5Those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace, 7because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8Those controlled by the fleshd cannot please God.
9You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alivee because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the deadf will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit, who lives in you.
Wait, is that really a Gospel Project link??? Friend, you need to get away from LifeWay and get you some Jesus!
Am half kidding, of course, but LifeWay has been steady going down a very bad path over the last few years. Their literature isn’t all bad. Their approach to worship leadership and music over the last few years has been...sad. They’re selling off assets left and right BEFORE the pandemic and abandoned all the stuff that was really working best in their favor.
I don’t begrudge anybody making money every chance they get. I just don’t like liars. The final nail in the coffin for me was when their music guy came out and said worship leaders should never use their own songs with their own congregations. Uh huh. How about all that multi-gen material you publish from Houston First?
I wish a bunch of Baptists would get together and start a company that could compete with LifeWay, preferably to buy them out and dismantle the company forever. There are enough Pharisees in the SBC as it is. We shouldn’t have to buy our literature from them.
Back to topic, all of this stuff is exactly what I’ve been talking about. Well done!
20 Dec 2020, 3:56 pm
