Freedom of Speech and the recent unpleasantness

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19 Jan 2021, 11:23 am

There is a difference between being rude and just being a hateful bigoted person on minorities.

The second part just goes beyond rudeness and holds power.

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Last edited by League_Girl on 19 Jan 2021, 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

theprisoner
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19 Jan 2021, 11:24 am

Fnord wrote:

Bigots and other hate-mongers abuse their free speech rights to spread lies

You're right. That does happen. No one would deny that. But also people lie about a lot of things. for e.g. |I'm sure their are people out there, who wrongfully claim they have a disorder and collect disability welfare . Would you throw everybody off welfare, abolish it, and let millions of genuine asd cases suffer? just to stop the few cheats taking advantage of the system? wouldn't that be an extreme action? causing more harm than good?

I dont know about you, but to me, freedom of speech is a good thing. inherently good. an absolute good. without it, where do you think we stand as individuals in this society? better off or worse off?

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theprisoner
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19 Jan 2021, 11:27 am

Fnord wrote:

theprisoner wrote:

Are you posting this in support of racism, sexism, and/or any kind of xenophobia?

I'm posting in defense the universal right of free speech in a democratic society. It's one of the inheritances of our current social order, not shared amongst other countries and their historical development.

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19 Jan 2021, 11:29 am

Fnord wrote:

League_Girl wrote:

I notice the ones who whine about being censored or being restricted are the ones that want to say racist things or antisemitism or trans or homophobia stuff, and other hate...

↑ This.

Bigots and other hate-mongers abuse their free speech rights to spread lies about those who have the same rights as they do, and they refer to being called out for their lies and hatred as "assault", "oppression", and "persecution". It is as if acknowledging that others have the same rights and privileges as themselves somehow diminishes their own feelings of self-importance, so they say and do all they can to make those others seem unworthy of any rights and privileges.

"If a gay, black, Jewish woman in a wheelchair has the same rights as me, then that means I am no better than she is, and I will never tolerate that!!" -- anonymous bigot (e.g., a straight, white, Christian man walking on his own two legs)

But why is a straight white Christian man allowed to be discriminated against by both the laws and by those from "Vunerable" groups but he is supposedly not allowed to discriminate against them? Shouldn't rights and laws work BOTH ways and if they don't work both ways it is not the minority groups who are now discriminated against but it is the straight white Christian males who are facing the discrimination as the laws and rules are not equal.

I am one who wants to stamp out all forms of discrimination so everyone has a level playing field in life.

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League_Girl
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19 Jan 2021, 11:31 am

Fnord wrote:

League_Girl wrote:

I notice the ones who whine about being censored or being restricted are the ones that want to say racist things or antisemitism or trans or homophobia stuff, and other hate...

Don't also forget "if we let you take longer time on tests, then everyone else will want to too" to deny that student with a disability that accommodation.

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19 Jan 2021, 11:32 am

Mountain Goat wrote:

Fnord wrote:

League_Girl wrote:

I notice the ones who whine about being censored or being restricted are the ones that want to say racist things or antisemitism or trans or homophobia stuff, and other hate...

How are white males being discriminated?

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19 Jan 2021, 11:34 am

theprisoner wrote:

Fnord wrote:

Bigots and other hate-mongers abuse their free speech rights to spread lies

It's not just a few people talking crap or whatever, there are thousands of MAGAs many of who stormed the Capital, seems they have taken their speech a little far to the point inciting violence. I would never suggest we throw out the first amendment, but it certainly should not be interpreted as americans having absolute free speech.

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19 Jan 2021, 11:35 am

League_Girl wrote:

Fnord wrote:

League_Girl wrote:

I notice the ones who whine about being censored or being restricted are the ones that want to say racist things or antisemitism or trans or homophobia stuff, and other hate...

Don't also forget "if we let you take longer time on tests, then everyone else will want to too" to deny that student with a disability that accommodation.

Gach! How I hate that!

"If I do something special for you then I have to do something special for everybody, too, and you are not special!" -- my Dad

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19 Jan 2021, 11:40 am

League_Girl wrote:

Mountain Goat wrote:

Fnord wrote:

League_Girl wrote:

I notice the ones who whine about being censored or being restricted are the ones that want to say racist things or antisemitism or trans or homophobia stuff, and other hate...

How are white males being discriminated?

A white male could be discriminated against, but there is certainly no systematic discrimination of such.

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19 Jan 2021, 11:46 am

Mountain Goat wrote:

Are you posting this in support of religious fundamentalism, white supremacism, and/or any kind of patriarchal western values?

wait a minute, isn't that the infamous "Ad hominem" fallacy i just threw at you, and implied about you. that fallacy where a person disregards the ideas of a communication and decides to focus on the personal characteristics of the communicator of an idea, in hopes to undermine their position, ignoring the validity or non validity of an argument on its own merits, in hopes of circumventing any facts or counter rebuttals that may inconveniently pop up and possibly expose flaws in my reasoning or my position. yes... yes, i think i just did.

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19 Jan 2021, 11:49 am

Sweetleaf wrote:

League_Girl wrote:

Mountain Goat wrote:

Fnord wrote:

League_Girl wrote:

I notice the ones who whine about being censored or being restricted are the ones that want to say racist things or antisemitism or trans or homophobia stuff, and other hate...

How are white males being discriminated?

A white male could be discriminated against, but there is certainly no systematic discrimination of such.

People with straight white male privilege who go, "but what about us? Now we are being discriminated against" I find cringe in because it comes off as a veiled way of expressing white supremacy and that they want to stay above minorities.

Just imagine if a child had a big king size bag of M&Ms but their two younger siblings don't have any. The mom wants all her kids to share that bag because she only bought one and handed it to one kid to share. The mom tells the kid to share with his younger siblings. The kid whines "But what about me, now I am being denied this bag of M&Ms I have here." He simply does not want to share that bag with his siblings.

Well white privilege people simply don't like to share their privilege with minorities because that means they now have to compete with more people in life but were totally fine with competing with other white people just like how this sibling didn't want to share the M&Ms because he didn't want less M&Ms to enjoy. But what if the mom bought all 3 size king bags of M&Ms for her 3 kids and the older sibling still complains and says it's not fair. The mom is mind boggled and baffled and asks her son "What do you mean it's not fair? You all have the same sized bag of M&Ms"

This is how I feel when someone whines about being discriminated against as minorities get more rights as us.

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madbutnotmad
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19 Jan 2021, 11:53 am

Free speech is a law that exists within an existing infrastructure where other laws also exist.

Freedom of speech is often used as an argument by people who hold prejudice towards one or more faction of society/the world.

People who hold prejudice try and twist this law to make people perceive their actions as acceptable.
However, prejudice is prejudice and if the opinions people with prejudice push are opinions of prejudice,
then such people are then breaching the laws against prejudice.

Such laws include laws against racial prejudice etc.

Thus, freedom of speech is a defense as long as the individual who is exercising their right to free speech is not breaching these other laws (discrimination laws).

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19 Jan 2021, 11:54 am

Mountain Goat wrote:

Fnord wrote:

League_Girl wrote:

I notice the ones who whine about being censored or being restricted are the ones that want to say racist things or antisemitism or trans or homophobia stuff, and other hate...

But why is a straight white Christian man allowed to be discriminated against by both the laws and by those from "Vunerable" groups but he is supposedly not allowed to discriminate against them? Shouldn't rights and laws work BOTH ways and if they don't work both ways it is not the minority groups who are now discriminated against but it is the straight white Christian males who are facing the discrimination as the laws and rules are not equal. I am one who wants to stamp out all forms of discrimination so everyone has a level playing field in life.

WHAT allegedly "discriminatory" laws are you referring to? Those laws asserting and re-asserting everybody's equal rights do not discriminate against straight white Christian males.

• Laws saying that queerfolk can marry each other do not discriminate against non-queerfolk.

• Laws saying that non-whites shall have equal access to education, employment, housing, and the ballot-box as whites do not discriminate against whites.

• Laws saying that no one religion will be given preferential treatment do not discriminate against Christians.

• Laws saying women have the right to control their own bodies do not discriminate against men.

Just what is your problem with equality between the races, the genders, the sexes, and everybody in general?

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19 Jan 2021, 12:00 pm

Fnord wrote:

Mountain Goat wrote:

Fnord wrote:

League_Girl wrote:

I notice the ones who whine about being censored or being restricted are the ones that want to say racist things or antisemitism or trans or homophobia stuff, and other hate...

But why is a straight white Christian man allowed to be discriminated against by both the laws and by those from "Vunerable" groups but he is supposedly not allowed to discriminate against them? Shouldn't rights and laws work BOTH ways and if they don't work both ways it is not the minority groups who are now discriminated against but it is the straight white Christian males who are facing the discrimination as the laws and rules are not equal. I am one who wants to stamp out all forms of discrimination so everyone has a level playing field in life.

I really hope someone can answer these. I am always curious about their mindsets.
I already know the answer to women having the rights to control their own bodies. The counter argument is "what about us (men) that want the baby, we are being denied that right to having that baby."

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Fnord
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19 Jan 2021, 12:04 pm

League_Girl wrote:

... "what about us (men) that want the baby, we are being denied that right to having that baby."

My response to this is, "Then go make one yourself!"

:lol:

Actually, once the man "gives" his semen to the woman, it is no longer his, and she can do what she wants with it; and if a man does not want to become a daddy, then he had better keep his semen to himself!

:lol:

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19 Jan 2021, 12:40 pm

Fnord wrote:

League_Girl wrote:

... "what about us (men) that want the baby, we are being denied that right to having that baby."

My response to this is, "Then go make one yourself!"

:lol:

I have seen men whine about how the woman can get to decide to have the baby and they don't get to make that choice so they are "forced" into fatherhood.

No no no, you are not forced honey, you can walk away from it and terminate your parental rights but you gotta pay child support, same applies to women too if they make that same choice. If you don't want to pay child support, don't have sex or use condoms instead.

But then the counter argument is about women who have oopsied men into getting themselves pregnant because she tampered with his condoms by poking holes in them or putting some semen in her vagina. But semen outside the vagina and penis are already dead sperm. But there are men who try top trick women into getting pregnant by tampering with her birth control as well.

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