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cyberdad
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12 Dec 2021, 3:17 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
I think its important to take a step back and recognise that authoritarianism can arise without politics where a leader is a populist dictator and/or a authoritarian leader (sometimes called a strong man). In non-western countries this is invariably somebody from the military.


It's been said, a dictatorship will come to America with the flag and the cross.


It arrived in America around 1949
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism



Kraichgauer
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12 Dec 2021, 4:59 pm

cyberdad wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
I think its important to take a step back and recognise that authoritarianism can arise without politics where a leader is a populist dictator and/or a authoritarian leader (sometimes called a strong man). In non-western countries this is invariably somebody from the military.


It's been said, a dictatorship will come to America with the flag and the cross.


It arrived in America around 1949
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism


Thankfully, there had been plenty of Americans who had erected a bulwark against the rise of fascism from 1949, onward... but I fear that same bulwark is beginning to crumble.


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DW_a_mom
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12 Dec 2021, 6:53 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:

The US is far from being a police state.


Who knows what we’ll be in a decade. Many red states have wrestled control of their election commissions, giving the legislatures (which can keep themselves in power via gerrymandering) control over that state’s presidential electors. If those laws were in place in 2020, Trump would be president and relatively credible rumors suggest he had plans for full on autocracy. He had been actively making steps in that direction at the end of his term, changing important government positions that weren’t political into political ones. If Democrats can’t pass some version of voting rights legislation, this all could still happen in 2024.

Read an opinion piece this morning about how it is mostly fear keeping Republican legislators in line. Fear for their families, which are being openly threatened by extremists.

Locally, far right extremists are threatening to burn down local businesses that have vaccine requirements. So much for respecting private property and “house rules.”

It’s a scary time to live in, and likely to get worse before it gets better.


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Kraichgauer
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12 Dec 2021, 6:59 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:

The US is far from being a police state.


Who knows what we’ll be in a decade. Many red states have wrestled control of their election commissions, giving the legislatures (which can keep themselves in power via gerrymandering) control over that state’s presidential electors. If those laws were in place in 2020, Trump would be president and relatively credible rumors suggest he had plans for full on autocracy. He had been actively making steps in that direction at the end of his term, changing important government positions that weren’t political into political ones. If Democrats can’t pass some version of voting rights legislation, this all could still happen in 2024.

Read an opinion piece this morning about how it is mostly fear keeping Republican legislators in line. Fear for their families, which are being openly threatened by extremists.

Locally, far right extremists are threatening to burn down local businesses that have vaccine requirements. So much for respecting private property and “house rules.”

It’s a scary time to live in, and likely to get worse before it gets better.


DeSantis in Florida wants to raise his own state militia answerable only to him. I can't imagine such a thing used for anything else than for police state tactics.


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Last edited by Kraichgauer on 12 Dec 2021, 7:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.

kraftiekortie
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12 Dec 2021, 6:59 pm

We had a great opportunity to be a police state after 9/11….but we didn’t become one—Trump’s recent efforts notwithstanding.



DW_a_mom
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12 Dec 2021, 7:01 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
... but I fear that same bulwark is beginning to crumble.


There is much to fear between actions taken in red states to control the outcome of future votes in their states, and a federalist-bent Supreme Court.


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DW_a_mom
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12 Dec 2021, 7:07 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
We had a great opportunity to be a police state after 9/11….but we didn’t become one—Trump’s recent efforts notwithstanding.


Our checks and balances have worked, but don’t discount how strongly some states have worked since the 2020 election to dismantle as many as they can. When the Republicans get control of Congress again, they will likely do the same. All we may have left is the integrity of the Supreme Court, but their ideological extremism is starting to show, which makes the gamble pretty scary.


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kraftiekortie
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12 Dec 2021, 7:14 pm

Every time we feel like we’re going to have an “activist” Supreme Court in the conservative sense, the feeling turns out to be mostly for naught. I feel like once most Justices think judicially, they tend to veer towards the “center.”

There’s a definite reactionary bent in some portions of the country—but I believe a “silent majority” will offset this trend.



DW_a_mom
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12 Dec 2021, 7:17 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
Every time we feel like we’re going to have an “activist” Supreme Court in the conservative sense, the feeling turns out to be mostly for naught. I feel like once most Justices think judicially, they tend to veer towards the “center.”

There’s a definite reactionary bent in some portions of the country—but I believe a “silent majority” will offset this trend.


I hope so, I want to believe so, but I’m not banking on it.


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kraftiekortie
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12 Dec 2021, 7:25 pm

I do feel we have to be vigilant, and be aware of trends.

We have to stop the roaches from becoming rats.



cyberdad
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12 Dec 2021, 8:44 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
I think its important to take a step back and recognise that authoritarianism can arise without politics where a leader is a populist dictator and/or a authoritarian leader (sometimes called a strong man). In non-western countries this is invariably somebody from the military.


It's been said, a dictatorship will come to America with the flag and the cross.


It arrived in America around 1949
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism


Thankfully, there had been plenty of Americans who had erected a bulwark against the rise of fascism from 1949, onward... but I fear that same bulwark is beginning to crumble.


I also sense fascism is making a come-back in Australia as well.



Kraichgauer
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12 Dec 2021, 8:58 pm

cyberdad wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
I think its important to take a step back and recognise that authoritarianism can arise without politics where a leader is a populist dictator and/or a authoritarian leader (sometimes called a strong man). In non-western countries this is invariably somebody from the military.


It's been said, a dictatorship will come to America with the flag and the cross.


It arrived in America around 1949
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism


Thankfully, there had been plenty of Americans who had erected a bulwark against the rise of fascism from 1949, onward... but I fear that same bulwark is beginning to crumble.


I also sense fascism is making a come-back in Australia as well.


And to think, we people of the industrialized world thought we had reached the pinnacle of governance with democracy, and that there was no turning back. If free government does fall back into authoritarianism, maybe somebody else in the future will breathe life back into it.


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DW_a_mom
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12 Dec 2021, 8:59 pm

cyberdad wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
I think its important to take a step back and recognise that authoritarianism can arise without politics where a leader is a populist dictator and/or a authoritarian leader (sometimes called a strong man). In non-western countries this is invariably somebody from the military.


It's been said, a dictatorship will come to America with the flag and the cross.


It arrived in America around 1949
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism


Thankfully, there had been plenty of Americans who had erected a bulwark against the rise of fascism from 1949, onward... but I fear that same bulwark is beginning to crumble.


I also sense fascism is making a come-back in Australia as well.


The movement is strong in pretty much all the western countries, actually, just some are further along than others.

I will never understand the attraction, but it isn’t limited to right or left. I hear too many people so strongly believe in their opinions that they do believe society should force everyone onto that path, whatever that path is.

I’m astonished that people can’t see the connection.

I’m astonished that there are Americans who admire what has happened in Bulgaria.

I guess life appears to be simpler if someone sets the rules and we’re all forced to follow. But is it, really? Go down that road and we won’t have what made us great anymore.


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cyberdad
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12 Dec 2021, 10:44 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
And to think, we people of the industrialized world thought we had reached the pinnacle of governance with democracy, and that there was no turning back. If free government does fall back into authoritarianism, maybe somebody else in the future will breathe life back into it.


In Australia it's been happening for some time since the corporatisation/privatisation of the government sector in the early 1980s. Neo-liberal capitalist practices have led to a push for minimising the role of government (pushed by authoritarian leaders of the like of Reagan and Thatcher) and emulated by Australian conservative leaders like John Howard and Tony Abbott.



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12 Dec 2021, 10:47 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:
I guess life appears to be simpler if someone sets the rules and we’re all forced to follow. But is it, really? Go down that road and we won’t have what made us great anymore.


Benevolent authoritarianism has only ever worked for the cite/state of Singapore which has been a laboratory for a one party state pushing economic development at the cost of civil liberties.

The authoritarian and nationalist Malaysian UMNO government has likewise pushed Malaysia to be economic tiger but again at the cost of civil liberties.



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15 Dec 2021, 12:50 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
A helluva better than a police state---that's for sure!


Have you read the article?


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