Bernie Bros are as much a threat to US democracy as...

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Can I get a clue? Context?

Did you post your complaint to inform, to inspire, or just to post a complaint?

Pfft, democracy is a farce. At least the US doesn't even claim to be a democracy (the technical term for its government system is a democratic republic). It's a system that tricks the people under it into believing they have more control than they actually do, and is quite brilliant at doing so. The US is even worse than a traditional democracy in that regard, actually, though I appreciate their honesty when they say they're not actually running a democracy.

Those on the left who wish to subvert democracy haven't gone as far as certain Trump supporters to restrict the ability to vote, and to subvert the results of democracy.

There are, of course, both "Bernie Bros" and "Trump supporters" who don't believe democracy should be subverted. But the number of "Trump supporters" who are prepared to act upon their anti-democratic views far outweighs the number of "Bernie bros" prepared to act upon said views. Indeed, as far as I can tell, Bernie Bros have had a negligible impact upon democracy.

It is fine for extremists to exist within a democratic system. Of course, it would be a disaster for America if Sanders or someone like him were to gain power, but unlike Trump, Sanders has not tried to throw out the results of a Presidential election. Sanders has not tried to force legislators to declare him the winner despite actually losing. And also, as bad as I think Sanders is, he isn't remotely as bad as Trump. He fundamentally respects democratic norms and most human rights. He is interested in doing the right thing, at least as he interprets it, whereas Trump is only interested in himself.

@The_Walrus, I did not start this thread to criticize Bernie Sanders or leftists in general, as many responses seem to assume (the other responses seem to reflect the very views I wish to challenge so I will make no attempt to reply to them).

My complaint is about Bernie Bros who refuse to support the Democratic Party at all unless they nominate Bernie Sanders. Unfortunately for them, Mr. Sanders has never had a high probability of being nominated for President. It seems that he will remain the choice of an important minority faction in the Party but a minority nonetheless, for the next few years.

It has not been unheard of for some of these Bernie Bros to vote for Trump in the general election as a protest, although that was a bigger phenomenon in 2016 than in 2020. In 2020 they were more likely to vote "3rd party" or not vote at all in the general election.

Now to understand this, you have to understand the US "two-party" system which it seems many people do not. Criticizing Bernie Bros is not the same thing as, for example, you were a member of the Canadian Liberal Party and you expressed anger at the NDP for being a separate party.

It might help to understand were I to point out that in the US Leftists often vote 3rd party or abstain from voting out of protest against "neo-liberals" etc. but the Right, even the Far Right, always votes Republican, giving the Right an unfair advantage. This is my complaint.

Right, I see.

In any case, I don't think that the choices of voters are a threat to democracy. I disagree with them, of course. Biden's attempts to pander to those people have basically sunk his legislative agenda, and still a lot of them complain that he hasn't pandered enough.

I suppose I see "the US" and "US democracy" as separate things. People making bad decisions at the ballot box might be bad for the US, but it usually isn't bad for US democracy. Democracy includes the ability to make "bad" decisions. It's a feature, not a bug. That said, you could argue that failing to vote Democratic allows the democratic system itself to be damaged, but I'm still more inclined to blame the people actually undermining democracy rather than the people choosing not to vote Democratic.

none of the above

Perhaps my other point that needs explaining is that I see the US Republican Party, under Trump, as leading the country away from what I consider to be Democracy. Consider Hungary under Fidesz. That is what I mean by a threat to democracy. The US was inarguably a democracy under Reagan and both Bushes. But I think this has changed with the rise of Trump. If you can't agree, then you won't accept my premise, which you are by no means obliged to do.

I think that's a fair point. The combination of gerrymandering, vote suppression, McConnell's Supreme Court antics and Trump's attempts to change the outcome of the election during his lame duck period (including his followers storming the Capitol) have threatened US democracy.

With that in mind, let us consider four voters:

1) A Trump supporter who votes for Trump
2) A Sanders supporter who votes for Trump
3) A Sanders supporter who doesn't vote
4) A Sanders supporter who votes for Biden.

Let us say that voting for Trump causes some amount of damage N to the US democratic system, and voting for Biden causes no damage. Let's also say that all four of these individuals live in the key state, which is both a swing state and determines the result of the election (no such state existed in 2020, but they have existed in the past - Florida, Ohio, and Missouri would all have qualified in 2000, for example).

#1 does N damage to democracy. #4 does 0 damage. #2 and #3 are arguable. I would argue that #2 does N damage, because intentions don't matter. However, #3 only does no more than N/2 damage, because not voting has half the impact that voting does. To illustrate my point, if 200 people vote for A and 100 people vote for B, then at the next election either 101 A voters need to not vote again, or 51 A voters need to switch to B, so switching is twice as powerful as not voting.

So, that subset of Bernie Bros who voted for Trump? Yes, individually they're basically as bad as bona fide Trump supporters.

However, Bernie-Trump voters are collectively less powerful than Trump-Trump voters because there are relatively few of them. Therefore, Trump-Trump voters are more of a threat. Furthermore, behaviour away from the ballot box is likely to be different; I imagine relatively few of the Capitol insurrectionists are likely to have been supporting Sanders in the 2020 Democratic primaries.

@The_Walrus I won't try to rebut your argument re voting, however there other motives (apart from ballot box behavior) behind my post.

Please don't jump to the conclusion that I'm an apologist for Joe Biden (I have specific criticisms of his policies that I could share if I wished) but a great deal of the vitriol being hurled at Biden seems to originate with people I would think of as "Bernie Bros" although obviously some of them might not accept that identification. But to the average, relatively un-political citizen, it's not obviously different from vitriol that originates with the Right, especially as much of it has largely the same tone e.g. Calling Biden "Sleepy Joe" or pointing out that he's not a "Classical Liberal" although 98% of the public have no idea what a Classical Liberal actually is.

EDIT these people are furious because Sanders wasn't elected President in 2020 however that isn't obvious to average citizens who don't read between the lines.

I think this has contributed to Biden's low approval rating and increases the likelihood that those opposed to Biden's agenda (including everyone who unapologetically supports Trump) will overwhelmingly win the 2022 election and that Trump or someone who supports his program will win the White House in 2024.

Biden being an utter disappointment has contributed to his low approval rating. If he can't deliver what people who voted for him were after it's unreasonable to expect people to still turn out in his favour. His party takes a significant portion of those voters for granted and doesn't deserve their support.

My interpretation of your comment is that you expected Biden to morph into Sanders once inaugurated then compel the US Congress to rubber-stamp a Sanders-style agenda. I hope my saying this doesn't make you feel bad but I have a hard time stopping myself from speaking my mind. Happy New Year!

You're perfectly welcome to speak your mind, I don't believe me expressing my disagreement with you interferes with your ability to speak your opinion.

That said, you seem to be confusing the Democratic party's responsibility to deliver results for their voters and maintain their support for an obligation their likely voters have to support them regardless of the results they deliver. They want to be the party of main street and of Wall street but unfortunately they're too beholden to the latter to deliver much for the former.

To me your comments seem typical of somebody who is fundamentally anti-capitalist. In the US, that philosophical orientation is not widespread. For whatever reason, relatively few Americans are indignant vis-à-vis banks, Wall Street, Big Corporations, etc. Most Americans' indignation is directed at mysterious people who want to take away their guns or force them to get vaccinated. There really isn't a grass-roots anti-capitalist movement in the US, just a small group of activists spread across the country who occasionally demonstrate, and are perceived as "rioters" when they do. You simply don't have the critical mass needed to bring about that sort of change. In fact, I can't think of any major Western country in which you do. This existed in the 70s in some parts of Europe but I really don't see it anywhere today.

A lot of Democrats voted for Biden in the hopes they could push him left, but I see no effort to do so. Even AOC and the squad won't fight the Corporate Dems. (They just give lip service to progressive issues on Twitter.)

So why should leftists vote to support the centre-right Democrats who are mostly disagreeable and hostile to their priorities?