An article by an American that sums up what I think

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The_Walrus
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26 Feb 2022, 8:51 pm

cyberdad wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Eerily I am having the same questions? Who would have guessed I would agree with conservative right wingers

I am wondering why we are putting our own countries at risk?

I was supportive of the pull out from Iraq, Afghanistan so why now send troops into a conflict with a superppwer over an issue they consider to be an internal matter (even if it's not).

I find it hypocritical that the west sit back and watch China murder an entire nation of people.

It's not like Ukraine will not exist. It will just become a puppet of Russia regardless. The current Ukrainian government is not Tibet (a county of monks allowed by the west to vanish) it's a corrupt regime.

You’re making me want to quote Luke Skywalker.

- We’re not “putting our own countries at risk”

- We’re not sending troops

- the Ukrainian government is significantly better than the Russian government, with Zelenskyy elected on an anti-corruption platform and his term to this point being characterised by taking power away from oligarchs. Crucially, Ukraine is a Democratic nation, while Russia is not, meaning that Ukraine has much more ability to improve
.


Yes I might have misread Biden/NATOs intentions. But what exactly does sending 7000 troops to Germany actually mean? If it's mean't as a provocation to Putin then it doesn't make sense. Putin's goal is to create a puppet states in Ukraine. He's not jostling to recreate the Soviet empire.

Germany is in NATO, and borders Russia. It is also a convenient staging post for advancing troops to Eastern European NATO members likely to be threatened by further Russian aggression.

I put the case that you are being far too confident in your knowledge of Putin’s intentions. A year ago I would have said a Russia attack on Kyiv was very unlikely. A week ago people on here were saying that Putin wouldn’t invade. A few hours ago you thought Biden was sending troops to Ukraine. How confident are you that Putin definitely won’t try a fourth invasion? He’s talked about Finland the same way he has talked about Ukraine; Transnistria is just over the border from Ukraine; and given his bitterness about the collapse of the USSR and the Baltic States’ hard pivot towards the West, it’s easy to see Putin targeting them if he thinks he can get away with it.

Maybe you are right - but so what? If you are right, then there is nothing much to lose from reinforcing our defences. On the other hand, if you are wrong and we didn’t reinforce our defences, then defending against the next invasion will be bloodier and harder. Sending troops to Lithuania sends a clear message that we won’t tolerate an invasion.



cyberdad
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26 Feb 2022, 9:41 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
if you are wrong and we didn’t reinforce our defences, then defending against the next invasion will be bloodier and harder. Sending troops to Lithuania sends a clear message that we won’t tolerate an invasion.


What it tells me is that NATO countries have always been ill equipped to deal with Russia, US troops were already stationed there in addition to German NATO troops. I can tell you Putin maybe acting aggressively in a hawkish manner but he's not going to risk WWIII by attacking other independent countries.

All his rhetoric is about accusing Ukraine of being taken over by extreme nationalist who ousted the pro-Russian government of Viktor Yanukovych, was ousted in 2014 and are an existential threat to areas of Ukraine currently under Russian control.
[img]Viktor%20Yanukovych,%20was%20ousted%20in%202014[/img]

Putin is using the extremist elements in Ukraine as the pretext for military incursion to supposedly bring stability back to Ukraine (in reality we all know he wants to reinstate a pro-Russian government).

He is never spoken about doing anything more so there is no threat to countries on Russia's border such as Poland or Germany. Therefore Biden sending 7000 troops to Germany is just flexing nothing else.



The_Walrus
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27 Feb 2022, 7:28 am

cyberdad wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
if you are wrong and we didn’t reinforce our defences, then defending against the next invasion will be bloodier and harder. Sending troops to Lithuania sends a clear message that we won’t tolerate an invasion.


What it tells me is that NATO countries have always been ill equipped to deal with Russia, US troops were already stationed there in addition to German NATO troops. I can tell you Putin maybe acting aggressively in a hawkish manner but he's not going to risk WWIII by attacking other independent countries.

All his rhetoric is about accusing Ukraine of being taken over by extreme nationalist who ousted the pro-Russian government of Viktor Yanukovych, was ousted in 2014 and are an existential threat to areas of Ukraine currently under Russian control.
[img]Viktor%20Yanukovych,%20was%20ousted%20in%202014[/img]

Putin is using the extremist elements in Ukraine as the pretext for military incursion to supposedly bring stability back to Ukraine (in reality we all know he wants to reinstate a pro-Russian government).

He is never spoken about doing anything more so there is no threat to countries on Russia's border such as Poland or Germany. Therefore Biden sending 7000 troops to Germany is just flexing nothing else.

Two issues with the bolded section.

The first is that when Putin invaded Georgia, he didn’t talk about invading Crimea. When he invaded Crimea, he didn’t talk about invading the rest of Ukraine. And even a week ago, he was only openly talking about invading Donbas, not the rest of Ukraine.

The second is that it is not true. For example, this is yesterday: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/ ... -invasion/

And prior to the invasion, Putin demanded that NATO withdraw from Eastern Europe altogether.
https://www.reuters.com/world/russia-un ... 021-12-17/

There are 100 million people living in Eastern European NATO members who Putin is threatening.