About Christian Unity

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I don't know. Is killing ever good?

Do the ends justify the means?

Indeed, THIS is the key issue,
not whether the plan was good.

I don't know either but it seems he delegated that job to a few regimees in the middle east.

What's wrong with the means?

Did you ever believe?

I did, but that was one of the things that made me have more doubts during my confusion about religious stuff back then.

I don't know. You seemed opposed to the
whole idea of the crusades, where at least
men said, "Let God sort them out." In Sodom
and Gomorrah, it looks as though even He abrogated
that responsibility. But well, good Christians being
Christ like, and all.

what does it mean to be a Christian" Paul said somewhere "I vouchsafed when among you to speak of nothing but Christ and Christ crucified" - most of what goes for "christianity" has nothing to do with Christianity. I like JOhn 17 - we are supposed to be one with each other. hah. but it is the goal. L

I have studied the bible, and know that section well. It speaks of homosexuality, but God never expressly said that that was the REASON they were wicked.

It's implied. Where do you think the word "sodomy" came from?

ANY excessive sexual behavior is sinful. The bible never uses the word Sodomy. And I'm not ignorant of the Bible. I used to be a republican evangelist. Now I know that all Jesus wanted us to do is love each other, including atheists, and love God, not condemn people because of hypersuperextraoverlyanalyzed rules.

It's true. And I've also said elsewhere that being a Christian is about Christ being God. It's not about homo/heterosexuality, or about general chastity. But once a person turns to God, that decision is that he's now willing to sacrifice what he'd like to do for what God wants him to do. Among other things, that means that one should not have sex outside of marriage. I observe this, even though my natural inclination, as well as opportunities around me, are quite to the contrary. Likewise, a Christian who feels gay should, like the straight Christian, abstain from sex outside of marriage. Since God clearly considers gay sex a sin, He all the more considers gay marriage sinful. If I can live the rest of my life without sex -- even though physically I would very much rather not -- why can't a gay person also abstain from sex if he truly loves God with all his heart?

Denying natural inclinations is something everyone does on a daily basis -- it's called civilization. Most of us don't steal, most of us don't run over pedestrians even when we have the right of way, most of us wait in line more or less patienty rather than push everyone out of our way, etc. We live in a semi-co-operative society. In order to do that, we have to restrain a plethora of natural urges -- and it mostly pays off. If it didn't, we'd all wander out to the wilderness to live.

Most conservatives are middle-aged or older, and most liberals are teens and young adults, and it's always been that way, proving once again that conservatives are just liberals who have seen more of life and have grown up.

Last edited by Ragtime on 23 Aug 2007, 1:48 pm, edited 7 times in total.

I didn't say, or even mean to imply, that the Bible says "sodomy"; of course it doesn't. WE say "sodomy", and the Bible says "Sodom". Make the connection already.

The fact that some use the word "Sodomy" has nothing to do with proof that your point is right. Sodomy is an English (I think) term, which was applied extra-biblically. Therefore, the fact that we call homosexuality Sodomy does not prove (and I don't see how it could) that what they did was a sin.

I think the Christian Church has a lot to change. Many Christians, though not all, have become modern day Pharisees. Love is the entirety of Jesus' message.

Many English words, like sodomy, are transliterations from other languages.
From Merriam-Webster (http://www.m-w.com) on "sodomy":
"Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French sodomie, from Late Latin Sodoma Sodom; from the homosexual proclivities of the men of the city in Genesis 19:1-11"



And part of that love is purity for God.

Okay Ragtime, this illustrates something I'd like to point out about you.

I think you argue your points quite well and intelligntly concerning God and the Bible. I gotta give you that. The thing that causes the problem is the accceptance or not of the basic premise of God's existence and the Bible as the word of God.

Okay, I know I'm stating the obvious, but I want to state that I understand this. I guess the religious discussions are just something we humans feel compelled to do despite the fact that our differences of opinion can never be reconciled because God or No-God can never be proven.

There, I got that off my chest.

Please continue....

Thank you. But, my arguments mean nothing if the Bible is not the word of God. And again, I know God on a personal level. We communicate, and He answers my prayers. So, it's going to be a little difficult for anyone to persuade me that He doesn't exist. I'm much more likely to believe that WrongPlanet doesn't exist, because it doesn't reach me on a spiritual level, like God does.