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Persephone29
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10 Apr 2023, 9:59 pm

goldfish21 wrote:
Persephone29 wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
So, even segregating genders, women born with high testosterone should be discriminated against in women’s sports?

All of it just seems like nonsense. Competition is competitive. May the best competitor win.


It worked fairly until the men started cheating. So, apparently there was enough of an even playing field that everyone felt their chances were fair. Now, put one man in and he's several body lengths in front of the strongest female swimmer. You can't tell me that's chance... I think you have your own bias.


Are you changing your story and saying men are in women’s sports or are you misgendering trans women?

I suspect it’s the latter. Since trans women are women, it’s all the same gender competing. That’s equality for all women.


I am trusting the science. In every post I have made in this thread there is scientific evidence to back up my claims. I have no idea what you attribute to my posts, that's on you.


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goldfish21
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10 Apr 2023, 10:12 pm

Persephone29 wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
Persephone29 wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
So, even segregating genders, women born with high testosterone should be discriminated against in women’s sports?

All of it just seems like nonsense. Competition is competitive. May the best competitor win.


It worked fairly until the men started cheating. So, apparently there was enough of an even playing field that everyone felt their chances were fair. Now, put one man in and he's several body lengths in front of the strongest female swimmer. You can't tell me that's chance... I think you have your own bias.


Are you changing your story and saying men are in women’s sports or are you misgendering trans women?

I suspect it’s the latter. Since trans women are women, it’s all the same gender competing. That’s equality for all women.


I am trusting the science. In every post I have made in this thread there is scientific evidence to back up my claims. I have no idea what you attribute to my posts, that's on you.

Except for the whole intentionally misgendering trans people part.

That’s not science. It’s bigotry.


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Persephone29
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10 Apr 2023, 10:22 pm

goldfish21 wrote:
Persephone29 wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
Persephone29 wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
So, even segregating genders, women born with high testosterone should be discriminated against in women’s sports?

All of it just seems like nonsense. Competition is competitive. May the best competitor win.


It worked fairly until the men started cheating. So, apparently there was enough of an even playing field that everyone felt their chances were fair. Now, put one man in and he's several body lengths in front of the strongest female swimmer. You can't tell me that's chance... I think you have your own bias.


Are you changing your story and saying men are in women’s sports or are you misgendering trans women?

I suspect it’s the latter. Since trans women are women, it’s all the same gender competing. That’s equality for all women.


I am trusting the science. In every post I have made in this thread there is scientific evidence to back up my claims. I have no idea what you attribute to my posts, that's on you.

Except for the whole intentionally misgendering trans people part.

That’s not science. It’s bigotry.



I deal in facts, not abstract concepts. The word 'transphobic' is essentially a neologism that I am unfamiliar with, which is common among autistic individuals. Therefore, you are bullying an autistic individual.

The effects of testosterone are long lasting. They cannot be erased with a declaration and a one piece bathing suit, nor can estrogen mitigate the effects of testosterone. Leah Thomas was competing against MEN from 2017-2020, and you expect me to believe that one short year later the effects of a lifetime of testosterone were canceled out?

And then have the unmitigated gall to label me 'transphobic' because I call bs? You need to go to school somewhere, on get hold of a textbook because you are sorely in need of an education.


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Pepe
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10 Apr 2023, 10:50 pm

DuckHairback wrote:
I've been hearing a bit about right wing politics and fear, recently.


Sounds reasonable to me but...

DuckHairback wrote:
I'm no psychologist, or expert, so take above with however much salt you want. But if there's something in it, I wonder how much easier that makes right wing people to exploit for political gain? Fear is a big driver for behaviour and grifters and conmen exploit fear all the time.


..."Dictator Dan" in Victoria, Australia used the same method of gaining power in terms of polling approval during COVID.
He is a leftist/Labor premier, however.



goldfish21
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11 Apr 2023, 12:51 am

Persephone29 wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
Persephone29 wrote:
I am trusting the science. In every post I have made in this thread there is scientific evidence to back up my claims. I have no idea what you attribute to my posts, that's on you.

Except for the whole intentionally misgendering trans people part.

That’s not science. It’s bigotry.



I deal in facts, not abstract concepts. The word 'transphobic' is essentially a neologism that I am unfamiliar with, which is common among autistic individuals. Therefore, you are bullying an autistic individual.

The effects of testosterone are long lasting. They cannot be erased with a declaration and a one piece bathing suit, nor can estrogen mitigate the effects of testosterone. Leah Thomas was competing against MEN from 2017-2020, and you expect me to believe that one short year later the effects of a lifetime of testosterone were canceled out?

And then have the unmitigated gall to label me 'transphobic' because I call bs? You need to go to school somewhere, on get hold of a textbook because you are sorely in need of an education.

:roll:


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11 Apr 2023, 3:40 am

@Persephone23, it's worth noting that we're generally talking about transgender children wanting to compete in sports, not adults. Just how locked in will the muscle strength of a middle school student be?

The US doesn't have the ability to tell worldwide adult sports organizations how to define anything. Who competes how for the Olympics is determined by the IOC, not West Virginia Republicans. So all these laws coming out from the right, ultimately, only affect children and their ability to be a part of the "student-athlete" culture that is very much valued in the US. Middle School, High School. College. And in states where they've passed, they've generally only affected exactly one student.

Talk about picking on a child.

That is, ultimately, exactly what these laws are about: picking on children that are struggling to fit in.

Is being sure a true girls wins, say, West Virginia high school track worth denying all future transgender children in that state the ability to participate in youth sports? See, to me, its not. If you listen to advocates of student-athlete culture talk about it, winning is not what the youth sports system is really about. It's about teamwork, learning to get along, hard work, pushing yourself to the limit, life-long fitness, and making friends. It is very rare that a transgender student-athlete has the talent and desire to win competitions in their sport. It is very rare that any student does. But most kids DO want to participate in sports. It's a social/cultural thing. It's about belonging. Acceptance. Again, because we're worried a transgender child might actually win, it's OK to tell all those children that they can't participate? That is what these laws are doing, they are telling all those little kids who identify as a different gender that sports have no place for them.

I'm not on board with that.

I realize that when it comes to awarding prize money, scholarships and professional opportunities that a potentially uneven playing field would require more analysis and consideration. It's a tough issue, balancing all the competing priorities, and my preference remains to allow the organizations giving those awards and opportunities to choose based on their own goals in providing those awards and opportunities. Nor do I really have a problem telling an ADULT that they will have to choose between an athletic career and being able to live as their true self; lots of people have dreams that their biology prevents them from achieving. It's a reality we all have to learn to face as adults, that there are rules and priorities limiting the choices we can make. But kids? They should get to try on everything and anything without judgement and barriers.


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11 Apr 2023, 4:37 am

 ! Cornflake wrote:
There are too many posts in this thread leaning toward transphobia, which is not acceptable.
It's also off-topic.

Please keep to the broader topic as in the opening post.

(also, moved to PPR)


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Persephone29
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11 Apr 2023, 5:38 am

DW_a_mom wrote:
@Persephone23, it's worth noting that we're generally talking about transgender children wanting to compete in sports, not adults. Just how locked in will the muscle strength of a middle school student be?

The US doesn't have the ability to tell worldwide adult sports organizations how to define anything. Who competes how for the Olympics is determined by the IOC, not West Virginia Republicans. So all these laws coming out from the right, ultimately, only affect children and their ability to be a part of the "student-athlete" culture that is very much valued in the US. Middle School, High School. College. And in states where they've passed, they've generally only affected exactly one student.

Talk about picking on a child.

That is, ultimately, exactly what these laws are about: picking on children that are struggling to fit in.

Is being sure a true girls wins, say, West Virginia high school track worth denying all future transgender children in that state the ability to participate in youth sports? See, to me, its not. If you listen to advocates of student-athlete culture talk about it, winning is not what the youth sports system is really about. It's about teamwork, learning to get along, hard work, pushing yourself to the limit, life-long fitness, and making friends. It is very rare that a transgender student-athlete has the talent and desire to win competitions in their sport. It is very rare that any student does. But most kids DO want to participate in sports. It's a social/cultural thing. It's about belonging. Acceptance. Again, because we're worried a transgender child might actually win, it's OK to tell all those children that they can't participate? That is what these laws are doing, they are telling all those little kids who identify as a different gender that sports have no place for them.

I'm not on board with that.

I realize that when it comes to awarding prize money, scholarships and professional opportunities that a potentially uneven playing field would require more analysis and consideration. It's a tough issue, balancing all the competing priorities, and my preference remains to allow the organizations giving those awards and opportunities to choose based on their own goals in providing those awards and opportunities. Nor do I really have a problem telling an ADULT that they will have to choose between an athletic career and being able to live as their true self; lots of people have dreams that their biology prevents them from achieving. It's a reality we all have to learn to face as adults, that there are rules and priorities limiting the choices we can make. But kids? They should get to try on everything and anything without judgement and barriers.


Nowhere in this post were middle school children specified or harmed. And nowhere in my replies were middle school children targeted. I think that if a kid wants to compete as the opposite gender there should be a 3 year minimum wait with feminizing hormone administration to avoid the situation that happened with Leah Thomas. Where Leah was competing badly against men, switches genders and the blows the female opposition out of the water one year later.

Sports in middle schools are separated by sex for a reason in middle school, as well. Why? Because testosterone is no joke, it's a powerful hormone that makes a huge difference in strength.


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11 Apr 2023, 2:42 pm

Persephone29 wrote:
I'll use an example that's front and center in the media right now: Advancing the rights of trans women in women's sports.
By advancing the rights of trans women (born biologically male and therefore genetically superior in strength) they have effectively dashed every hope of fair competition among the women who compete with what they were born with. The biological female may as well just concede defeat. So, the left doesn't overtly declare that women have no place in sports, they will just make it unfair by making them compete against men.

This is just nonsense, though, isn't it?

Even in sports that have trans-inclusive policies, we don't see trans women winning all the time. That's a scientific fact.

You keep bringing up Lia Thomas. Given your repeated assertions of your knowledge and factual accuracy, you obviously know she lost most of her races, don't you? She had more success when she was competing as a man in her first two years of college, finishing second in the 500m, 1000m, and 1650m freestyle at the Ivy League championships, the fastest in her university. She then spent one year competing in the men's category while on HRT, as you know, before taking a year's break during the pandemic, and then competing as a woman in her senior year. In her strongest event, the 500m free, she lost 15 seconds over those two years, as you know.

As you know, she won one race in the women's categories in her senior year, winning the 500m free by less than 2 seconds, over 9 seconds below the record. At the same event, Kate Douglass set nine records. Thomas came last in the 100m freestyle.

The notion that cis women can't compete with trans women just doesn't stack up to reality. It's transphobic scaremongering with little basis in fact.

I know you care very much about having views that are rooted in facts and evidence. Given this, I'm surprised your views are so stridently opposed to the facts of the case. It's not really the rigorous approach I'd expect from someone who cares about reason and rationality.



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11 Apr 2023, 4:45 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
Persephone29 wrote:
I'll use an example that's front and center in the media right now: Advancing the rights of trans women in women's sports.
By advancing the rights of trans women (born biologically male and therefore genetically superior in strength) they have effectively dashed every hope of fair competition among the women who compete with what they were born with. The biological female may as well just concede defeat. So, the left doesn't overtly declare that women have no place in sports, they will just make it unfair by making them compete against men.

This is just nonsense, though, isn't it?

Even in sports that have trans-inclusive policies, we don't see trans women winning all the time. That's a scientific fact.

You keep bringing up Lia Thomas. Given your repeated assertions of your knowledge and factual accuracy, you obviously know she lost most of her races, don't you? She had more success when she was competing as a man in her first two years of college, finishing second in the 500m, 1000m, and 1650m freestyle at the Ivy League championships, the fastest in her university. She then spent one year competing in the men's category while on HRT, as you know, before taking a year's break during the pandemic, and then competing as a woman in her senior year. In her strongest event, the 500m free, she lost 15 seconds over those two years, as you know.

As you know, she won one race in the women's categories in her senior year, winning the 500m free by less than 2 seconds, over 9 seconds below the record. At the same event, Kate Douglass set nine records. Thomas came last in the 100m freestyle.

The notion that cis women can't compete with trans women just doesn't stack up to reality. It's transphobic scaremongering with little basis in fact.

I know you care very much about having views that are rooted in facts and evidence. Given this, I'm surprised your views are so stridently opposed to the facts of the case. It's not really the rigorous approach I'd expect from someone who cares about reason and rationality.



Lia Catherine Thomas (born 1999 or 2000)[2] is an American swimmer. In 2017, she began studying at the University of Pennsylvania, from which she graduated in May 2022.[3] She competed on the university's men's swim team from 2017 to 2020, and on its women's swim team from 2021 to 2022. In March 2022, she became the first openly transgender athlete to win an NCAA Division I national championship in any sport, after winning the women's 500-yard freestyle event. Beginning in 2021, she became part of the public debate about transgender women in sports.

I'm only interested in this.


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Persephone29
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11 Apr 2023, 4:50 pm

and this:

In the 2018–2019 season she was, when competing in the men's team, ranked 554th in the 200 freestyle, 65th in the 500 freestyle, and 32nd in the 1650 freestyle. In the 2021–2022 season, those ranks are now, when competing in the women's team, fifth in the 200 freestyle, first in the 500 freestyle, and eighth in the 1650 freestyle.[17][18] According to an archived page of the swimming data website Swimcloud, Thomas was ranked 89th among male college swimmers for that season.[19]


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goldfish21
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11 Apr 2023, 4:52 pm

Persephone29 wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
Persephone29 wrote:
I'll use an example that's front and center in the media right now: Advancing the rights of trans women in women's sports.
By advancing the rights of trans women (born biologically male and therefore genetically superior in strength) they have effectively dashed every hope of fair competition among the women who compete with what they were born with. The biological female may as well just concede defeat. So, the left doesn't overtly declare that women have no place in sports, they will just make it unfair by making them compete against men.

This is just nonsense, though, isn't it?

Even in sports that have trans-inclusive policies, we don't see trans women winning all the time. That's a scientific fact.

You keep bringing up Lia Thomas. Given your repeated assertions of your knowledge and factual accuracy, you obviously know she lost most of her races, don't you? She had more success when she was competing as a man in her first two years of college, finishing second in the 500m, 1000m, and 1650m freestyle at the Ivy League championships, the fastest in her university. She then spent one year competing in the men's category while on HRT, as you know, before taking a year's break during the pandemic, and then competing as a woman in her senior year. In her strongest event, the 500m free, she lost 15 seconds over those two years, as you know.

As you know, she won one race in the women's categories in her senior year, winning the 500m free by less than 2 seconds, over 9 seconds below the record. At the same event, Kate Douglass set nine records. Thomas came last in the 100m freestyle.

The notion that cis women can't compete with trans women just doesn't stack up to reality. It's transphobic scaremongering with little basis in fact.

I know you care very much about having views that are rooted in facts and evidence. Given this, I'm surprised your views are so stridently opposed to the facts of the case. It's not really the rigorous approach I'd expect from someone who cares about reason and rationality.



Lia Catherine Thomas (born 1999 or 2000)[2] is an American swimmer. In 2017, she began studying at the University of Pennsylvania, from which she graduated in May 2022.[3] She competed on the university's men's swim team from 2017 to 2020, and on its women's swim team from 2021 to 2022. In March 2022, she became the first openly transgender athlete to win an NCAA Division I national championship in any sport, after winning the women's 500-yard freestyle event. Beginning in 2021, she became part of the public debate about transgender women in sports.

I'm only interested in this.

Maybe you should write her a letter? Or join/start a fan club? Or write a book about her?

Seems if you’re only interested in her you should focus on her instead of broadly being transphobic. Maybe she’ll interact with you and you’ll learn some tolerance & acceptance for your obsession.


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11 Apr 2023, 4:53 pm

Persephone29 wrote:
Lia Catherine Thomas (born 1999 or 2000)[2] is an American swimmer. In 2017, she began studying at the University of Pennsylvania, from which she graduated in May 2022.[3] She competed on the university's men's swim team from 2017 to 2020, and on its women's swim team from 2021 to 2022. In March 2022, she became the first openly transgender athlete to win an NCAA Division I national championship in any sport, after winning the women's 500-yard freestyle event. Beginning in 2021, she became part of the public debate about transgender women in sports.

I'm only interested in this.

Ah, so you're only interested in the part that goes with your BS, but absolutely none of the other facts refuting it. Truly a woman of "facts" and "science"!



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11 Apr 2023, 5:12 pm

Persephone29 wrote:
...But, like I said in another thread, this era is marked by an absolute refusal to assume responsibility for anything. They want to refuse to use protection, get knocked up, not have the sense to know they are knocked up, regain consciousness (I guess?) when they are like 24 weeks, pull the kid apart limb from limb, and have someone else fund it.

Hey Miss Facts, can you point me to some sources showing that's how most abortions occur? Since, y'know, you're Miss Facts and all.



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11 Apr 2023, 6:18 pm

Fairfield wrote:
Persephone29 wrote:
...But, like I said in another thread, this era is marked by an absolute refusal to assume responsibility for anything. They want to refuse to use protection, get knocked up, not have the sense to know they are knocked up, regain consciousness (I guess?) when they are like 24 weeks, pull the kid apart limb from limb, and have someone else fund it.

Hey Miss Facts, can you point me to some sources showing that's how most abortions occur? Since, y'know, you're Miss Facts and all.


Nowhere did I say that's the way most abortions occur. You'll need to go further back to read that I said they should be allowed to get any service they can afford, but if they want the tax payer to pay for it, they'll need to seek an abortion within the legal time limits (before it actually looks like a baby human). The problem comes when the doofuses wait until the kid could almost survive outside the womb to kill it, and then expect tax payers to fund it.


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11 Apr 2023, 6:21 pm

Fairfield wrote:
Persephone29 wrote:
Lia Catherine Thomas (born 1999 or 2000)[2] is an American swimmer. In 2017, she began studying at the University of Pennsylvania, from which she graduated in May 2022.[3] She competed on the university's men's swim team from 2017 to 2020, and on its women's swim team from 2021 to 2022. In March 2022, she became the first openly transgender athlete to win an NCAA Division I national championship in any sport, after winning the women's 500-yard freestyle event. Beginning in 2021, she became part of the public debate about transgender women in sports.

I'm only interested in this.

Ah, so you're only interested in the part that goes with your BS, but absolutely none of the other facts refuting it. Truly a woman of "facts" and "science"!



These came from plain old Wikipedia. It's hard to claim that a swimmer loses most of their races when they've jumped from the hundreds rank when competing as a man, to single digits rank when competing as a woman. Testosterone matters...


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