Atheism - Joseph Stalin’s Godless 5-year plan of 1928

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TwilightPrincess
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28 Oct 2023, 12:53 pm

blitzkrieg wrote:

naturalplastic wrote:

I guess that in real life its the religious that come at you to proselytize. Knocking on your door.

But online its the atheists who are the...Evangelicals...out to bring you the "good news".

I totally agree with this.

Religious people seem to not be particularly outspoken online nowadays whereas atheists seem to be enthusiastic about their perceived, personal enlightenment or rationality as they may believe.

This perception may have more to do with confirmation bias. Many religious people use online platforms, including social media, as part of their ministry.

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TwilightPrincess
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28 Oct 2023, 12:56 pm

babybird wrote:

I'm always quite polite to the jw folk when they knock on my door. I'm not into all that personally but I appreciate that for them it's a job. So I take their pamphlets, look at the pictures and then bin them.

I don't hate religious people or even religion. Its just not my thing.

I wouldn't even consider myself as an atheist because it's just another thing to believe in.

I suppose I just don't care about it all really. It holds nothing for me.

It’s not quite a job. They don’t get paid for what they do. Preaching is a requirement for a JW, though, and I would never advocate being rude or harsh to them in any way even though I’m critical of their belief system and of cults in general because they’re inherently harmful. I’ve been in their shoes, and it’s certainly not a great place to be.

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blitzkrieg
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28 Oct 2023, 1:13 pm

TwilightPrincess wrote:

blitzkrieg wrote:

naturalplastic wrote:

I guess that in real life its the religious that come at you to proselytize. Knocking on your door.

But online its the atheists who are the...Evangelicals...out to bring you the "good news".

This perception may have more to do with confirmation bias. Many religious people use online platforms, including social media, as part of their ministry.

I suppose in my case, being in a relatively secular country, I may have a different experience of this versus yourself who lives in the U.S.

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TwilightPrincess
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28 Oct 2023, 1:14 pm

blitzkrieg wrote:

The_Walrus wrote:

I think you can see how:

blitzkrieg wrote:

Whilst some modern atheists in the United States of America might think they are cool or edgy or somehow newly enlightened with their atheism, the seeds of official, state atheism were being sown long before the decline of Christianity in the western world, way back in the early 20th century – in the Soviet Union.

could reasonably be read as attempting to imply that the atheism practiced today has its roots in Stalinism. It's a bizarre comparison because the US does not have state atheism - there is constitutional separation of church and state.

Also a bit silly to suggest that atheists tend to think their beliefs are cool or edgy. In my experience, it isn't atheists trying to make themselves seem like oppressed plucky underdogs telling unpopular truths. Most atheists are simply motivated by the lack of a rational reason to believe in gods.

The intention of that part of my post and the thinking behind it, was to highlight the type of folk (in my mind) in the United States that seem to live in a vacuum of sorts and who think that atheism is something new, precisely because of the lack of experience of the world that a lot of people in the U.S.A have - i.e, it's a common trope for citizens of the U.S.A never to have travelled outside of the U.S.A or to Europe. I am not saying this applies to every last person in the U.S.A - obviously it does not.

In short, I was criticizing the ignorance of the Americans of the U.S.A & demonstrating an instance of why atheism is not new and why that would be the wrong to think that - precisely the opposite of what you & naturalplastic seemed to assume that I meant.

I suppose if two people thought the same thing then that may indicate a problem with the communication of the intention of my post. But I can assure you I do not think, and have never thought, that modern day atheism either originated from Stalin's Russia or is practiced today as an extension of that.

I wasn't claiming the U.S. has state atheism either. I was comparing general, cultural atheism (today) in the United States there with the state atheism of a different country almost a century ago. I apologize if that was unclear.

What do you mean by “cultural atheism” in the US? I’ve not seen that. Have you ever been to the US? How is atheism in the US different from atheism in other locales? Are you basing this off of anything besides personal bias?

I only know one person who openly identifies as an atheist offline besides myself.

My experience as an atheist doesn’t seem significantly different from those from Canada, England, etc.

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blitzkrieg
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28 Oct 2023, 1:18 pm

TwilightPrincess wrote:

blitzkrieg wrote:

The_Walrus wrote:

I think you can see how:

blitzkrieg wrote:

I have visited three states of the U.S - Texas, Arkansas & California, so I do have some experience of being there.

When I mention cultural atheism in the U.S, I have in mind the kind of culture of American atheists that seems to think that being an atheist is somehow a counter-culture, whereas if they had lived in Europe, they would have witnessed secularism for most of their lives if they were/are my age. At least in the United Kingdom anyway - but a few other major countries such as France & Germany and the Netherlands too have a rapidly declining culture of faith, which has been going on for decades now.

You accuse me of personal bias, but I am not sure where you believe my bias lies?

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28 Oct 2023, 1:20 pm

I'll add to the above post - I am aware that the U.S is probably the most Christian of developed nations and when I reference cultural atheism, I am referring not to the general population or their belief systems, but the actual culture of atheists in the U.S specifically.

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Last edited by blitzkrieg on 28 Oct 2023, 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

blitzkrieg
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28 Oct 2023, 1:23 pm

I'll give some more background to why I think of the United States being a host to these kinds of people.

When I was on Facebook, I had a bunch of people from the U.S who posted as though they were part of some revolution of atheism (which may be partly true in the U.S, but not of Europe, where I live).

And they had this way about them where they seemed to think they knew better, even though a lot of them didn't have a clue about what they were talking about.

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28 Oct 2023, 1:24 pm

Quote:

I have in mind the kind of culture of American atheists that seems to think that being an atheist is somehow a counter-culture.

I’ve not seen that although I suppose it would make sense for individuals in parts of the Bible Belt to feel like outsiders due to the extreme far right, religiosity of most of their neighbors/community

Your bias lies in citing the “ignorance of Americans.” You claim that American atheists think that atheism is something new. I’ve not seen that. Your position appears biased.

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TwilightPrincess
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28 Oct 2023, 1:25 pm

blitzkrieg wrote:

You can find evidence for just about anything on Facebook. It says nothing about people in general.

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blitzkrieg
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28 Oct 2023, 1:26 pm

TwilightPrincess wrote:

Quote:

I have in mind the kind of culture of American atheists that seems to think that being an atheist is somehow a counter-culture.

I acknowledge that not everyone has had the same experience as myself.

I also acknowledge that you in particular may have had a completely different experience, especially having been a JW in the U.S.

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28 Oct 2023, 1:28 pm

It’s a good idea to avoid making generalizations about groups of people based on insufficient/invalid evidence.

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blitzkrieg
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28 Oct 2023, 1:31 pm

TwilightPrincess wrote:

It’s a good idea to avoid making generalizations about groups of people based on insufficient/invalid evidence.

I think it is reasonable to talk about one's personal experiences and subjectivity on a forum.

This isn't a marked assignment at an academic institution.

Perhaps you expect too much from a forum?

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TwilightPrincess
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28 Oct 2023, 1:36 pm

I don’t think I do, especially not in PPR.

If people want to make convincing arguments, they might want to avoid making generalizations, logical fallacies, or the use of insufficient/invalid evidence to support their claims.

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28 Oct 2023, 1:41 pm

I have noticed a definite cultural difference in attitudes towards many things including religion.

And by the same token I'm sure the people of America enjoy making generalised assumptions about British/English people.

You don't really have to look very hard to see these differences and it's not even a criticism it's an observation.

I get defensive about this when people make assumptions about English people or when people from the south of England make sweeping generalisations about people from the north etc.

Sometimes we take things personal when we should just accept that this is just how it is and how it will always be.

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28 Oct 2023, 1:43 pm

I don’t make generalized assumptions about people because I realize that such assumptions often don’t depict reality. Very often they are based on confirmation bias and insufficient exposure/evidence.

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Last edited by TwilightPrincess on 28 Oct 2023, 1:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

blitzkrieg
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28 Oct 2023, 1:44 pm

TwilightPrincess wrote:

I don’t make generalized assumptions about people because I realize that such assumptions often don’t depict reality.

Hmm, I think you are placing too much weight on the perceived generalized assumptions that you claim I have made or which are perhaps wrong, somehow.

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