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funeralxempire
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20 Dec 2023, 9:06 pm

goldfish21 wrote:
RedDeathFlower13 wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:

Disagree with you on this one. Human rights are human rights all over the world. Whether it's countries that murder gay people or oppress women or enslave workers, it IS the rest of the word's business to help people being victimized by poor governance. We shouldn't just turn a blind eye to it and leave everyone to fend for themselves, IMO.


Yeah sorry but I strongly disagree with you 100%. Forcing Western Values on the whole world because we believe our way is the only right way is a textbook example of Imperialism. It's wrong and it's a recipe for disaster plain and simple.


Ok. You're free to disagree all you like, but nearly the entire world has a consensus that human rights are universal and people shouldn't be murdered for innate human characteristics, oppressed for their gender, or enslaved etc etc. Which makes these things a global concern just like other things like war crimes and so on.

I don't believe people should be forced into any particular religion or language or diet or etc etc way of life, but I Do believe everyone should be able to live their lives with some degree of freedom from being abused, harmed, killed, taken advantage of etc.


So, how many Yanks are you willing to have killed for this and how much of the American tax payer's earnings do you intend on spending? Because we both know Canada ain't going to be doing the bulk of the heavy lifting in this crusade.


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The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. —Malcolm X
Just a reminder: under international law, an occupying power has no right of self-defense, and those who are occupied have the right and duty to liberate themselves by any means possible.


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20 Dec 2023, 9:15 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
RedDeathFlower13 wrote:
ToughDiamond wrote:
It's important also to think very carefully before wading in and trying to make a change, because these things may have some very unpleasant and unintended consequences.


All the more reason to stay out of the problems of other countries. In case you guys don't look at history itself every time The West tries to "help" these other countries they end up making things a lot worse in the long run.

Just look at my country's most recent blunders in Iraq and Afghanistan. Or Vietnam before these as some of the perfect examples.


I believe, to some extent it's a matter of how we try to accomplish goals.

We're prone to using a lot more stick than carrot and not having much patience. We expect other societies to cover what took us decades or centuries in years or months and then get frustrated when it doesn't work as planned.

As much as justice delayed is justice denied, I think in the long run we're still better off relying on incentives, combined with letting change occur naturally, rather than seeking to impose it.


I agree. The right kind of change, change for the better of society, has to come naturally. It can't be forced on people because you're always going to have some people rebelling against it which leads to violence and even more oppression.

I'm not trying to say we shouldn't express sympathy for people who live under true oppression or not try to welcome them when they flee that oppression in their homeland. I'm basically saying that trying to force such oppression to change countries either through war or conquest or tariffs or whatever has proven time and time again to be a very bad idea.

But remember this...

"West is West, East is East. Never the twain shall meet."

That's a very wise quote for a good reason.


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funeralxempire
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20 Dec 2023, 9:21 pm

RedDeathFlower13 wrote:
I agree. The right kind of change, change for the better of society, has to come naturally. It can't be forced on people because you're always going to have some people rebelling against it which leads to violence and even more oppression.

I'm not trying to say we shouldn't express sympathy for people who live under true oppression or not try to welcome them when they flee that oppression in their homeland. I'm basically saying that trying to force such oppression to change countries either through war or conquest or tariffs or whatever has proven time and time again to be a very bad idea.


I mostly agree with this.

RedDeathFlower13 wrote:
But remember this...

"West is West, East is East. Never the twain shall meet."

That's a very wise quote for a good reason.


But this seems like orientalism. The boundary between east and west generally seems to be drawn wherever is convenient for the sake of argument. Sometimes Russia's the east, other times it's the west; sometimes Japan and South Korea are part of the west; Turkey can be either; etc, etc.

We claim the Middle East isn't the west despite also considering it the cradle of western civilization. Which one is it?

I don't think the concepts are very useful because the definitions change depending on the point someone is hoping to make.


_________________
The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. —Malcolm X
Just a reminder: under international law, an occupying power has no right of self-defense, and those who are occupied have the right and duty to liberate themselves by any means possible.


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20 Dec 2023, 9:29 pm

RedDeathFlower13 wrote:
ToughDiamond wrote:
It's important also to think very carefully before wading in and trying to make a change, because these things may have some very unpleasant and unintended consequences.


All the more reason to stay out of the problems of other countries. In case you guys don't look at history itself every time The West tries to "help" these other countries they end up making things a lot worse in the long run.

Just look at my country's most recent blunders in Iraq and Afghanistan. Or Vietnam before these as some of the perfect examples.

Well, if you're talking about a government interfering outside their own jurisdiction, I doubt their motives have much to do with helping foreigners or even helping their own people. I was more thinking of ordinary people going in there to help some oppressed group to fight back.



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20 Dec 2023, 9:37 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
RedDeathFlower13 wrote:
I agree. The right kind of change, change for the better of society, has to come naturally. It can't be forced on people because you're always going to have some people rebelling against it which leads to violence and even more oppression.

I'm not trying to say we shouldn't express sympathy for people who live under true oppression or not try to welcome them when they flee that oppression in their homeland. I'm basically saying that trying to force such oppression to change countries either through war or conquest or tariffs or whatever has proven time and time again to be a very bad idea.


I mostly agree with this.

RedDeathFlower13 wrote:
But remember this...

"West is West, East is East. Never the twain shall meet."

That's a very wise quote for a good reason.


But this seems like orientalism. The boundary between east and west generally seems to be drawn wherever is convenient for the sake of argument. Sometimes Russia's the east, other times it's the west; sometimes Japan and South Korea are part of the west; Turkey can be either; etc, etc.

We claim the Middle East isn't the west despite also considering it the cradle of western civilization. Which one is it?

I don't think the concepts are very useful because the definitions change depending on the point someone is hoping to make.



Ok then, leaving the outdated East vs West thing out of this. As you yourself pointed out earlier it's a waste of American lives and resources to try and fix all the "bad" countries that oppress their people. It's draining our own society which feels like it's own the verge of collapse (whether it really is or not seems debatable but I personally believe it is). Besides being the World Police is a pretty thankless job when you consider the fact that my country ranks number 3 in the top 10 most hated countries in the world next to Russia and China. And all three of these countries share in common the fact that they impose the will of their governments on others.

I firmly believe that even with the best intentions (and I'll admit that my country doesn't always have the best intentions in foreign affairs) any country that tries to force its might on other countries is creating a bad mess not only for the countries that they invade but for their own people too.

And frankly it feels like my country is becoming the next Roman Empire and will collapse faster and in a similar.


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funeralxempire
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20 Dec 2023, 9:43 pm

RedDeathFlower13 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
RedDeathFlower13 wrote:
I agree. The right kind of change, change for the better of society, has to come naturally. It can't be forced on people because you're always going to have some people rebelling against it which leads to violence and even more oppression.

I'm not trying to say we shouldn't express sympathy for people who live under true oppression or not try to welcome them when they flee that oppression in their homeland. I'm basically saying that trying to force such oppression to change countries either through war or conquest or tariffs or whatever has proven time and time again to be a very bad idea.


I mostly agree with this.

RedDeathFlower13 wrote:
But remember this...

"West is West, East is East. Never the twain shall meet."

That's a very wise quote for a good reason.


But this seems like orientalism. The boundary between east and west generally seems to be drawn wherever is convenient for the sake of argument. Sometimes Russia's the east, other times it's the west; sometimes Japan and South Korea are part of the west; Turkey can be either; etc, etc.

We claim the Middle East isn't the west despite also considering it the cradle of western civilization. Which one is it?

I don't think the concepts are very useful because the definitions change depending on the point someone is hoping to make.



Ok then, leaving the outdated East vs West thing out of this. As you yourself pointed out earlier it's a waste of American lives and resources to try and fix all the "bad" countries that oppress their people. It's draining our own society which feels like it's own the verge of collapse (whether it really is or not seems debatable but I personally believe it is). Besides being the World Police is a pretty thankless job when you consider the fact that my country ranks number 3 in the top 10 most hated countries in the world next to Russia and China. And all three of these countries share in common the fact that they impose the will of their governments on others.

I firmly believe that even with the best intentions (and I'll admit that my country doesn't always have the best intentions in foreign affairs) any country that tries to force its might on other countries is creating a bad mess not only for the countries that they invade but for their own people too.

And frankly it feels like my country is becoming the next Roman Empire and will collapse faster and in a similar.


That's all a lot harder to argue with.

Ideally, the US would rely more on cultural influence, similar to Japan.
I don't see that change occurring until all other options have been attempted though.


_________________
The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. —Malcolm X
Just a reminder: under international law, an occupying power has no right of self-defense, and those who are occupied have the right and duty to liberate themselves by any means possible.


RedDeathFlower13
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20 Dec 2023, 9:57 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
RedDeathFlower13 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
RedDeathFlower13 wrote:
I agree. The right kind of change, change for the better of society, has to come naturally. It can't be forced on people because you're always going to have some people rebelling against it which leads to violence and even more oppression.

I'm not trying to say we shouldn't express sympathy for people who live under true oppression or not try to welcome them when they flee that oppression in their homeland. I'm basically saying that trying to force such oppression to change countries either through war or conquest or tariffs or whatever has proven time and time again to be a very bad idea.


I mostly agree with this.

RedDeathFlower13 wrote:
But remember this...

"West is West, East is East. Never the twain shall meet."

That's a very wise quote for a good reason.


But this seems like orientalism. The boundary between east and west generally seems to be drawn wherever is convenient for the sake of argument. Sometimes Russia's the east, other times it's the west; sometimes Japan and South Korea are part of the west; Turkey can be either; etc, etc.

We claim the Middle East isn't the west despite also considering it the cradle of western civilization. Which one is it?

I don't think the concepts are very useful because the definitions change depending on the point someone is hoping to make.



Ok then, leaving the outdated East vs West thing out of this. As you yourself pointed out earlier it's a waste of American lives and resources to try and fix all the "bad" countries that oppress their people. It's draining our own society which feels like it's own the verge of collapse (whether it really is or not seems debatable but I personally believe it is). Besides being the World Police is a pretty thankless job when you consider the fact that my country ranks number 3 in the top 10 most hated countries in the world next to Russia and China. And all three of these countries share in common the fact that they impose the will of their governments on others.

I firmly believe that even with the best intentions (and I'll admit that my country doesn't always have the best intentions in foreign affairs) any country that tries to force its might on other countries is creating a bad mess not only for the countries that they invade but for their own people too.

And frankly it feels like my country is becoming the next Roman Empire and will collapse faster and in a similar.


That's all a lot harder to argue with.

Ideally, the US would rely more on cultural influence, similar to Japan.
I don't see that change occurring until all other options have been attempted though.


It's funny to look back and think that in spite of the aftermath of World War 2 how it was at the height of the Jim Crow era our leaders seemed to have handled rebuilding countries like Japan and West Germany pretty decently plus we fixed a lot of problems in our own country brought on by the Great Depression.

But now it feels like it was just a fluke in history considering how bad the US has continued to sink since then.


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21 Dec 2023, 4:51 pm

RedDeathFlower13 wrote:
But remember this...

"West is West, East is East. Never the twain shall meet."

That's a very wise quote for a good reason.

Nah, it's a very unwise quote from a notorious racist.



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21 Dec 2023, 5:00 pm

MushroomPrincess wrote:
RedDeathFlower13 wrote:
But remember this...

"West is West, East is East. Never the twain shall meet."

That's a very wise quote for a good reason.

Nah, it's a very unwise quote from a notorious racist.


Well... weren't they all?


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MushroomPrincess
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21 Dec 2023, 5:16 pm

RedDeathFlower13 wrote:
MushroomPrincess wrote:
RedDeathFlower13 wrote:
But remember this...

"West is West, East is East. Never the twain shall meet."

That's a very wise quote for a good reason.

Nah, it's a very unwise quote from a notorious racist.


Well... weren't they all?

I don't know, who is "they"? Not sure what you're insinuating here.



funeralxempire
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21 Dec 2023, 5:33 pm

RedDeathFlower13 wrote:
It's funny to look back and think that in spite of the aftermath of World War 2 how it was at the height of the Jim Crow era our leaders seemed to have handled rebuilding countries like Japan and West Germany pretty decently plus we fixed a lot of problems in our own country brought on by the Great Depression.

But now it feels like it was just a fluke in history considering how bad the US has continued to sink since then.


I'm not sure it was a fluke, but it was a rare example of understanding the stakes and being willing to do what it took to achieve what they believed was needed to be done.


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The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. —Malcolm X
Just a reminder: under international law, an occupying power has no right of self-defense, and those who are occupied have the right and duty to liberate themselves by any means possible.


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21 Dec 2023, 5:45 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
RedDeathFlower13 wrote:
It's funny to look back and think that in spite of the aftermath of World War 2 how it was at the height of the Jim Crow era our leaders seemed to have handled rebuilding countries like Japan and West Germany pretty decently plus we fixed a lot of problems in our own country brought on by the Great Depression.

But now it feels like it was just a fluke in history considering how bad the US has continued to sink since then.


I'm not sure it was a fluke, but it was a rare example of understanding the stakes and being willing to do what it took to achieve what they believed was needed to be done.


I wish we had more leaders like that today, instead of these self-serving kakistocrats.


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21 Dec 2023, 5:47 pm

MushroomPrincess wrote:
RedDeathFlower13 wrote:
MushroomPrincess wrote:
RedDeathFlower13 wrote:
But remember this...

"West is West, East is East. Never the twain shall meet."

That's a very wise quote for a good reason.

Nah, it's a very unwise quote from a notorious racist.


Well... weren't they all?

I don't know, who is "they"? Not sure what you're insinuating here.


The majority of these 'famous quotes' were made by racist old white men who back in those days held all the power in the world.


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funeralxempire
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21 Dec 2023, 5:56 pm

RedDeathFlower13 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
RedDeathFlower13 wrote:
It's funny to look back and think that in spite of the aftermath of World War 2 how it was at the height of the Jim Crow era our leaders seemed to have handled rebuilding countries like Japan and West Germany pretty decently plus we fixed a lot of problems in our own country brought on by the Great Depression.

But now it feels like it was just a fluke in history considering how bad the US has continued to sink since then.


I'm not sure it was a fluke, but it was a rare example of understanding the stakes and being willing to do what it took to achieve what they believed was needed to be done.


I wish we had more leaders like that today, instead of these self-serving kakistocrats.


To be fair, they did and were complicit in some pretty crappy things (supporting dictators, recruiting war criminals who fled via ratlines, etc)


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The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. —Malcolm X
Just a reminder: under international law, an occupying power has no right of self-defense, and those who are occupied have the right and duty to liberate themselves by any means possible.


RedDeathFlower13
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21 Dec 2023, 6:02 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
RedDeathFlower13 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
RedDeathFlower13 wrote:
It's funny to look back and think that in spite of the aftermath of World War 2 how it was at the height of the Jim Crow era our leaders seemed to have handled rebuilding countries like Japan and West Germany pretty decently plus we fixed a lot of problems in our own country brought on by the Great Depression.

But now it feels like it was just a fluke in history considering how bad the US has continued to sink since then.


I'm not sure it was a fluke, but it was a rare example of understanding the stakes and being willing to do what it took to achieve what they believed was needed to be done.


I wish we had more leaders like that today, instead of these self-serving kakistocrats.


To be fair, they did and were complicit in some pretty crappy things (supporting dictators, recruiting war criminals who fled via ratlines, etc)


True... but I guess politics has always been like that. In the end politics isnt so much about doing the moral thing as it is keeping your own country well fed and safe by any means necessary.


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01 Jan 2024, 9:42 pm

RedDeathFlower13 wrote:
MushroomPrincess wrote:
RedDeathFlower13 wrote:
MushroomPrincess wrote:
RedDeathFlower13 wrote:
But remember this...

"West is West, East is East. Never the twain shall meet."

That's a very wise quote for a good reason.

Nah, it's a very unwise quote from a notorious racist.


Well... weren't they all?

I don't know, who is "they"? Not sure what you're insinuating here.


The majority of these 'famous quotes' were made by racist old white men who back in those days held all the power in the world.

I know. Which begs the question of why are we still quoting them? We can totally like, break this cycle. Break all the cycles. Tradition is just peer-pressure from dead people yo