Evangelicals Call Jesus “Liberal” and “Weak”

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Kraichgauer
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23 Jan 2024, 6:03 am

cyberdad wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

Considering that Jesus got crucified for his message, and that so many of his disciples died horrendously, I'd say today is a wee bit easier to get away with Christ's message than it was 2,000 years ago.

I think the earliest converts were very devout to the point they willingly died for their faith. often fairly gruesomely in a Roman colosseum. That must have impressed upon those watching how strong this christian faith is.

I'm sure they did for many.

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naturalplastic
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23 Jan 2024, 6:40 am

^

It comes down to...what was said in the single best one liner Ive ever heard on TV.

You might recall the old "John Lauroquette Show" ...a dark comedy sitcom...in which the title actor plays a recovering alcoholic who works as a manager of a downtown intercity bus station...full of odd regular characters.

A goofy man-woman team of cops were regular characters.

In a Xmas episode JL and these cops are drinking shot glasses of schnappes , and JL raises his glass and announces "this is the season we celebrate the birth of man who preached love, peace, charity, and forgiveness".

The boy cop says "HEY...you cant go around talking like THAT nowadays!"

The girl cop says "YEAH..nowadays if you talk like THAT folks would CRUCIFY you!".

:lol:

An ironic moment of dialogue ...yet it sums up everything were talking about on this thread.....and what that Texas preacher said...all hundreds of words! :lol:

MushroomPrincess
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23 Jan 2024, 3:05 pm

cyberdad wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

Anyone who respects human rights -- not American-style "liberty" but true equity -- will soon find himself staring down the gun barrel of a police officer or other fascist blackguard. I don't think the early Christians were exceptional in any regard, in fact I would argue that Karl Marx is perhaps the closest thing we have to a proper Jewish Messiah in the current era, being a man born from a long rabbinical line who aspired to unite all humanity, a "savior" of a sort, and much like Jesus no one in recent history is as hated and reviled as him and his followers.

cyberdad
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23 Jan 2024, 3:59 pm

MushroomPrincess wrote:

[in fact I would argue that Karl Marx is perhaps the closest thing we have to a proper Jewish Messiah in the current era, being a man born from a long rabbinical line who aspired to unite all humanity, a "savior" of a sort, and much like Jesus no one in recent history is as hated and reviled as him and his followers.

Marx was an ideological messiah rather than a spiritual one. But yes, I can see how the Marxist movement he inspired intended to take humanity to the "promised land". Human foibles prevent the execution of such forms of government.

In reality when Americans eventually begin space colonies, settlements will need to be socialist in order to survive. The idea of bringing in perks for some and not others in space will lead to disaster.

The_Face_of_Boo
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24 Jan 2024, 2:59 am

Mona Pereth wrote:

MushroomPrincess wrote:

old_comedywriter wrote:

Think about it. Radical right wingers want their own form of Sharia Law.

"Shariah" is just Arabic for "the way", and from what I understand, Arabs really need white people to stop using it as a scare word.

I would say this depends on the context.

There is an underlying valid concern, which is that many people, including many Arabs, really don't want to live in a theocracy, Islamic or otherwise. It is legitimate to object to the idea of a government based on "Sharia Law." (I expect that Face of Boo, a Lebanese Arab here on WP, would agree with me about this.)

It is also legitimate to point out that Christian religious right wingers, here in the U.S.A., are being hypocrites if they object to "Sharia Law" while at the same time trying to impose (their idea of) Christianity on the rest of us by force of law.

However, yes, "sharia" has ALSO been used as a scare word, in ridiculous ways.

During the decade after 9/11/2001, here in NYC, professional Islamophobes tried to scare people into believing that there was a plot by Muslims to impose "Sharia Law" on us here in the U.S.A.

Their evidence for this? Things like Halal food being an option in public schools in districts where there happened to be a lot of Muslims. But that's not imposing anything on anyone. That's just allowing Muslims to practice their religion, similar to serving kosher food, as an option, in schools in districts where there are a lot of Jews. Yet the professional Islamophobes were outraged about halal food, calling it "creeping sharia," as if its mere presence were some kind of insidious mortal threat to the rest of us.

Then there was the thoroughly bigoted campaign against the establishment of a bilingual high school for Arab-American students, similar to other bilingual high schools for other ethnic minorities. The name of that campaign was "Stop the Madrassa!" -- although the school was certainly not an Islamic school of any kind. Indeed the proposed school was to be named after Khalil Gibran, who was Christian.

And then, in 2010, there was the hullabaloo against the so-called "Ground Zero Mosque." (See Wikipedia page about Park51.) I participated in two counter-protests against this campaign.

« Sharia law » is not just a word that means « the way » (it actually means « the Law / Commandement »), this is not just what it resonates only, it more resonates to… a nightmarish way of living that people should very wary of any group promoting it. Think of Iran pre-79 vs post it. Extremist Muslim groups like the Muslim Brotherhood don’t just « practice their own religion » but they continuously aim to preach and expand their ideology; because expansion is considered a holy duty, it is a part of their faith - extremist Judaism, while it is very similar to Islam, doesn’t have a such preaching ambition.

That should be split into another thread; but there *is* a threat from some Muslim groups in the west for promoting Sharia law, like for instance, in France. I have seen many videos of extremist Muslim protests in the West chanting death for their host countries and calling for Sharia.

Remember, many of these were expelled from Arab countries for being unwanted by their dictatorship regimes.

Hell, even the crown prince of Saudi Arabia is trying to get rid of Sharia law. Did anyone check the dresses of the invited actresses on the « Joy Awards » that happened in Riyadh few days ago? Including Saudi actresses/figures.

Islamists exploit democracy to take control, and once they, they treat other as second class. The best living example that witnessed for that …is Iran and Lebanon.

https://english.alarabiya.net/amp/News/ ... -Nasrallah

Sometimes I feel the West’s Left Wing is naive on that and isn’t much aware of the Islamism’s threat.

Mona Pereth
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24 Jan 2024, 6:40 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:

In this regard, Islamists are very similar to the Christian religious right wing (here in the West), who likewise "continuously aim to preach and expand their ideology." However, here in the West and especially here in the U.S.A., Islamists are still very few. Christian religious right wingers are much more of a threat simply because there are so many more of them.

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:

That should be split into another thread; but there *is* a threat from some Muslim groups in the west for promoting Sharia law, like for instance, in France. I have seen many videos of extremist Muslim protests in the West chanting death for their host countries and calling for Sharia.

But what fraction of the French population supports them? According to these French statistics, only 10% of the population of France identifies as Muslim, of any kind. So, because Islamists are a subset of Muslims, there is no way that Islamists can achieve, by democratic means, the power to impose Islamic law on all of France.

Here in the U.S.A., Muslims are only about 1% of the population. And, no matter how much some of them preach, there's no way they can possibly take over the entire U.S.A. within the lifetime of anyone living today. Preaching might enable them to increase their percentage of the population a little more than they could through immigration alone. But it is sheer paranoia to imagine that there is any danger of Islamists taking over the U.S.A. in the foreseeable future, no matter how fanatically some of them might desire this.

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:

Remember, many of these were expelled from Arab countries for being unwanted by their dictatorship regimes.

Hell, even the crown prince of Saudi Arabia is trying to get rid of Sharia law. Did anyone check the dresses of the invited actresses on the « Joy Awards » that happened in Riyadh few days ago? Including Saudi actresses/figures.

Islamists exploit democracy to take control, and once they, they treat other as second class.

But they can't possibly do this unless Muslims are a majority of the population to begin with. Only a subset of Muslims could conceivably vote for politicians who aim to impose Islamic law on the country as a whole.

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:

The best living example that witnessed for that …is Iran and Lebanon.

https://english.alarabiya.net/amp/News/ ... -Nasrallah

Iran has been Muslim-majority for centuries. Lebanon too is a Muslim-majority country.

I agree that in Muslim-majority countries, there is a potential danger of Islamists taking over by democratic means.

So I agree that Islamists are a real threat to you in Lebanon. But not here in the U.S.A.

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:

Sometimes I feel the West’s Left Wing is naive on that and isn’t much aware of the Islamism’s threat.

There simply are not anywhere near enough Muslims here for Islamism to be a threat.

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The_Face_of_Boo
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24 Jan 2024, 1:12 pm

^^ Numbers-wise, you're right, they still to have a lot of sex to become majority there....

Lebanon is recently a Muslim-majority, it was a Christian-majority, but for many reasons a lot immigrated. It is believed there's more Lebanese Chritians in diaspora than their fellow Muslims.

MushroomPrincess
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24 Jan 2024, 1:28 pm

DoniiMann wrote:

The thing about parishioners finding Jesus' teachings to be weak or woke, and inappropriate for our times is that Jesus was living under a foreign rule dictatorship, surrounded by a virtual theocracy of fundamentalists. Romans to the left of him, Pharisees to the right. And his response was the Sermon on the Mount and Love Thy Neighbor.

And these 'Christians' complaining about immigrants need to remember that the bible (OLD Testament) says to welcome them and treat them as your own.

As for fear of pushing Muslim influence in schools... I notice these fundagelicals are trying to push food for poor kids OUT of schools, and prayer and the Eleven Commandments* into schools.

Beware a prominent heresy in the fundagelical community. The Seven Mountains Mandate seeks to gain influence, and control where possible, over these seven areas of life: family, religion, education, media, entertainment, business, and government. This agenda is what allows them to gloss over Trump's embracing all seven deadly sins. He's given more to them, promised more to them, than any other president.

*Eleven Commandments: A lot of modern Christians follow the Pauline doctrine that following religious law doesn't save anyone. That Christ's substitutionary death on the cross frees gentiles from the need to follow Jewish religious law. So they can eat pork and get tattoos.
But they keep the Ten Commandments... and they keep the anti-gay rules. Even though it's part of the same level and in the same section of the bible as don't eat pork. Even though Jesus NEVER mentioned it.
But because it bothers them, then they figure it must bother God. So it's their Eleventh Commandment.
Pass the bacon please.

(edit: bolded for emphasis)

Jesus probably made out with all the apostles. All of them. I've been around gay people before, I think I know a polycule when I see it :lol:

cyberdad
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24 Jan 2024, 4:33 pm

MushroomPrincess wrote:

Jesus probably made out with all the apostles. All of them. I've been around gay people before, I think I know a polycule when I see it :lol:

Oh yes, never thought about Jesus that way.

ToughDiamond
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25 Jan 2024, 2:12 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:

There simply are not anywhere near enough Muslims here for Islamism to be a threat.

I think that's correct. In my UK home town - Leicester - there are now about as many Muslims as Christians, but no trouble has come from it AFAIK. Most people in the UK, regardless of religious persuasion, aren't fundamentalists, they just want to get on with their lives.

DoniiMann
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25 Jan 2024, 4:32 pm

ToughDiamond wrote:

Mona Pereth wrote:

There simply are not anywhere near enough Muslims here for Islamism to be a threat.

Exactly why they should be welcomed into the community. I figure that a lot of troubles come down to identity politics. Imagine a scenario where a segment of British folk freeze out newly arrived Muslims. Don't make them feel welcome. It slows down the process of integration and them becoming British Muslims. A process that becomes all the more-so after a generation or two. So they are ripe for outside/international extremist views.

But welcome them. Give them a distinctly British Muslim identity. Say hi when you see them at the shops. Eventually they'll side with Britain against some foreign cult. They'll want what they have rather than what some foreign lunatic is offering.

When someone approaches them to say how bad and anti-Muslim the West is so they should help 'The Cause'... either they'll think to themselves, 'Yes, that's been my experience too', or 'Nope, don't know what you're talking about.'

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ToughDiamond
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25 Jan 2024, 5:13 pm

^
Pretty much, yes. I noticed the low opinion the indigenous UK population had about Asian immigrants back in the 60s and 70s. These days it's confined to older people and the far right working class.

I was lucky - I was obsessed with the Beatles in the 60s, and George Harrison got into Indian music, religion and transcendental meditation, and the Beatles didn't approve of racism. Next thing I knew, I'd made friends with a Muslim bus conductor. He took to letting me off paying my fare every time I got on his bus. Many people don't see the value of being friendly and giving everybody a chance.

I can see how xenophobia can happen. Our leaders don't pre-empt the problems of culture shock when immigrants first turn up in significant numbers. It's well known that sudden mass immigration causes friction, but all government has ever done about it is to demonise the indigenous population's negative reaction to it and issue banal anti-racist propaganda, which just drives it underground. Things usually settle down eventually, but not before a lot of damage has been done.

The_Face_of_Boo
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25 Jan 2024, 6:21 pm

MushroomPrincess wrote:

DoniiMann wrote:

(edit: bolded for emphasis)

Jesus probably made out with all the apostles. All of them. I've been around gay people before, I think I know a polycule when I see it :lol:

The “You must eat my flesh” makes much more sense now…

cyberdad
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25 Jan 2024, 7:02 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:

The “You must eat my flesh” makes much more sense now…

Interesting, so does alluding to jesus being gay or Mohammed being a pedophile breach forum guidelines as offensive? Never quite know how one's thoughts are perceived through other people's eyes. Particularly if other people are devout followers of said religion?

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