Israel's Raid on Syria: Prelude to a Nuke Crisis?

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I know Israel is superior to Hezbollah on the ground? I didn't see them get very far into Lebanon and I do think they intended to get deeper and faster then they did. If I recall, the Israeli populace wasn't very happy about the war results, I think they removed a few heads for the blunder and they weren't Muslim heads. That we still think in terms of open desert tank warfare isn't the way it's going to happen. The Muslim extremists are fully aware of what is going on in Iraq.

I don't think they really care about any more propaganda from the Muslim side. They seem to have plenty now. That they intend to make southern Lebanon another barrier area, I don't have much doubt. I can't say as I blame them. I wouldn't be too fond of having the occasional rocket zipping over my head. On the other hand I do wish they would all get down to solving the issues in a serious manner. A lot of stubbornness on both sides.

Sorry about all the cutting up of your post, I think you made some valid points as well.

I'm not denying that Israel handled the war horribly.

Also, when I said "Hezbollah isn't a match for Israel on the ground", what I meant to say was that Hezbollah is not a match for Israel in open warfare. Guerilla warfare is a completely different story. And I'd have to say Israel went into that fight unprepared. Of course, it's extremely difficult to route out an enemy entrenched in civilian infrastructure, seeing as when you blow up a rocket stockpile under an elementary school, you get condemned for blowing up the school while the rockets are ignored by the liberal media. Based on how efficiently Israel pulled off the recent operation in Syria (literally, 100% efficiency there), I'd guess that the great majority of civilian infrastructure damaged was being utilized by Hezbollah in some way or other.

Then there's an ethical issue... if Hezbollah is entrenched in civilian infrastructure, who is responsible for the civilian deaths when that infrastructure is attacked? In my opinion, because Hezbollah's use of civilians is a cold blooded attempt to score propaganda points, the sole responsibility for those deaths rests on Hezbollah, even if the bombs are dropped by Israeli jets. Admittedly not too many people agree with me there, but that's how I see it. For that matter, can you call civilians who are running messages and supplies for Hezbollah guerillas non-combattants? A lot of that was reported.

So basically I believe Israel shot themselves in the foot trying to avoid collateral damage, and Hezbollah scored a propaganda coup off it.

As for the article about dumping cluster bombs on Lebanon, I've been linked to it before. And quite frankly I don't believe it. One commander who insists on remaining anonymous, while the Defense Minister's office insists it didn't happen. And it's not like soldiers who are against a war in principal aren't above lying through their teeth about alleged war crimes committed by their own side. There was some guy in the Iraq war who was getting raked over the coals for it before his story was eclipsed by the Jesse MacBeth one - can't recall his name unfortunately. Most notably though, I've not heard the story repeated through any mainstream Arab news sources, who I'd expect to be all over it.

Golly gosh, what an all-round good guy I am!

But that has nothing to do with this thread, or the post of mine you initially responded to.

Yes, inasmuch as there is a "cycle of violence" between L.A. gangs and the local officers who police them.
Police and criminals are not morally equivalent.
One cannot say that the only thing L.A. gangs want is to stop being put in jail -- no, they also want to steal, and rape and murder people who get in their way.

One can't say that criminals' existence is caused by the police's existence.

Last edited by Ragtime on 28 Sep 2007, 3:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Thank Olmert. He's the worst prime minister Israel has ever had, and of course only got the unwieldy job because of Sharon's medical condition. It wouldn't be a bad day for Israel if he were assassinated -- most of the country strongly wants him out of there anyway, he's just still got a toehold for the moment. He has no military experience, and didn't know what he was doing against Hezbollah. In fact, a Hezbollah official said that his organization was getting very, very weak, and that if Israel had continued the fighting for just 10 more days, Israel would have won. (Sorry if this has already been mentioned -- I didn't read through the entire thread.)

First, you try elevating the Israeli government above all others in the region with some metaphor of police and gangs, comparing the enemies of Israel to common thugs, while Israel is the principled police force fighting for right and justice.

Then you say that Prime Minister Olmert of is incompetent and it wouldn't be a bad thing if he were assassinated.

Clearly, your really just another of the gang members who is for the 'murder of people who get in their way' . You don't have a commitment to democracy or rule of law, except when it serves your ends. When the results dont turn out the way you want them, you start hoping or planning an assasination will eliminate the person

I'm glad the Mossad is keeping an eye on you. Ever since Yigal Amir assasinated Yitzhak Rabin, they have taken such talk very seriously.

No, I was talking about the Palestinians. (I thought that was clear.)

Who's comparing? But actually, common thugs at least face you when they attack, instead of cowardly setting up and activitating rocket launchers in Gaza aimed at Israel the very day Israel gave Gaza to them!

Um, on their land? You bet they are. With the police metaphore, I'm referring to Palestinian terrorism on Israeli soil. (Again, I thought that was clear.)

Correct.

No, I'm not advocating an assassination, I'm simply stating a fact. Olmert doesn't know what he's doing, and although he's certainly realized it by now, he has chosen not to step down and let someone competent to run Israel take over.


Nope. Again, I stated a fact -- one you didn't argue with, BTW -- that Olmert is an abismal prime minister, who needs to be removed from office, preferrably by either volutarily stepping down (which he apparently will never do) or by the vote of the people. I don't want him assassinated, but I also don't want him killing more Israeli's by making more bone-headed decision putting them in harm's way. For instance, Hezbollah -- POINTLESS. Many Israelis lost their lives FOR ABSOLUTELY NOTHING because Olmert incompetently ordered the wrong strategies at the wrong times. He is a moron, who's in a position to kill more people by accident -- therefore, to save lives, he must be removed.



Again, some people should be killed. I'm sorry if that truth upsets you. I don't know which ones should be, but I don't think Olmert is one of them. Nonetheless, my point stands (and please quote it correctly) that it would not be a bad day for Israel if he were assassinated. That is not an understament; it is an exact statement. They would have to try hard to find a replacement worse than him, so it's a good gamble that his cessation as prime minister would save hundreds of lives. I personally prefer the "dragging him out kicking and screaming" approach, if physical force became necessary; I detest true violence. But if Israel needed another man for the "drag-out" team, and I lived there, I'd volunteer.

you must be new here....welcome to the board!

Really?


I could detail the number of wars that Israel has started, and been caught up in since its inception. (Half a dozen or so.) I could also list the number of wars and conflcts that the US has started, been involved in, and instigated since its own inception. Or even just the ones since 48. I could list the armed forces Israel has at its disposal, its military strength, its strike capability.. and contrast and compare it with the american military, and their VAST stockpile of weaponry, surely enough to lay waste to the whole world a dozen times over. And thats just America.. I havent even factored in China, or Russia.

Or you can google them yourself, then ponder whether your statement holds even a fragment of truth.

I think you'll find it doesn't.