Anyone afraid of heaven?

Post Reply New Topic

I have had thoughts of heaven but my fear of dying terrifies exponentally more. People I talk to say they want to die in their sleep. I don't. I want to be as conscious as possible when it happens. Have you ever read any Ann Rice? I kind of like to think of heaven like being a vampire on earth forever if that makes any sense. Of course I would like to pick what age I get too look like but other than that my genetic material would be the same along with my memories of my former life. After all I don't want to forget my life, I like my life and I want all my memories to stay even the bad ones. In order words I don't want to go to heaven to become perfect because perfect is not real. At best it's reality is defined by mathematical principles, at worse it's defined by others' judgments. I don't think heaven is the place to be happy in the hedonistic since of the term. I think it would be place of enlightenment.

I don't believe in heaven. But if my brain were "fixed", wouldn't I cease being the person that I am now? If we were all "fixed", would we lose individuality? But I've always had it that if by some small probability that heaven existed, it wouldn't be a place I'd enjoy being in. And if this thing about having your brain fixed was true, it certainly only reaffirms what I think of it.

Well, you would change of course, but one of the ideas in the Bible is that man is broken, really though, you are not static so therefore you never are the person you are now, the real question is if the change you would experience would deny you of the things that are important, and if evil is important to you then yes, if you worship God and try to hate evil then no. The issue of individuality is a more difficult one because the exact nature of the damaged nature is hard to determine, some people extend it so far to claim that our logic is fundamentally flawed. You would enjoy being there though, all who enter will enjoy it, but some have argued I think that heaven would be a horrible place for those who would be denied entrance.

That's true, but this kind of change is something that your brain accepts. If it is, then you are still yourself; you simply say (and agree) that you've changed. But to have someone completely fix your brain may not be something that you yourself welcome, and it might be called being manipulated, even if by someone you call and respect God, and you may not be the person you want to be.

I argue that heaven is horrible on the grounds that I must think certain thoughts or else I would never be allowed into heaven. That is, I may be "morally upright" in all respects according to Christianity except that I do not believe in God or "love" him.

To accept Christ(one of the commonly agreed requirements to getting into heaven) means that you would want this change.

No, you cannot be morally upright according to Christianity. Christians are not morally upright according to Christianity and are also deserving of hell, the difference is that Christians accept God and the sacrifice that Jesus made for them and get into heaven through this sacrifice. Your idea is that people are saved by works, which is explicitly rejected by Christian doctrine, faith is necessary for salvation, the issue is that people cannot display faith without works. Really though, there are 2 basic and highly important moral commandments God gives(just to simplify doctrine as these are more complex given the nature of reality in Christianity, found in Mark 12:28-31 though), and you cannot even begin to follow one without believing in God and you will inevitably fail at the other because you are flawed.

Well, that's all good and fine; I suppose that means I'm not going to heaven anyways. Not that I"d want to waste my time with people who only believe in faith. And I say this with all due respect.

Well, right, if Christianity is true then you are not going to heaven. Well, really, within the Christian framework heaven is unambiguously superior to hell in terms of enjoyment. Really though, I tend to take the position that most things are believed out of some level of faith, but I have a very strong nihilistic tendency that rejects most statements of absolutely known truths as things which cannot be absolutely proven.

I see what you mean; I have faith that probability and logic work, but only because their results are consistent. But to have faith in something you can't confirm specifically wouldn't be worth it.

Well, the only thing is that you also have faith in things that you cannot confirm specifically, such as the outside world. You may counter-claim that the outside world is something that is fundamental enough that it would be stupid not to have faith in it, but for some their religious experience is something they would put on the same level. Not only that, but, you also tend to make assumptions about how you or others ought to live, there is nothing telling you logically that X is the way to do things, or that you should value Y, but you definitely act in the X manner and value the Y things.

Well, I'm free with that. As I do mathematics, I understand that there is more than one way of doing things, and sometimes, people prefer certain ways of doing things, or that people choose to do certain things that I might view as illogical or irrational because it is impractical, slow or has a low probability of success--however, that doesn't mean I want them to do things differently. It's their life and their business; as long as they're not telling me how to do things, I don't have a problem with it. I suppose you're trying to imply that "rational" depends on how I want to achieve something. If I had to choose to define "rationa" in the real sense and not an abstract one, I'd go with the last definition--one that has the highest probability of success.

That sounds like the Nexus from ST:Generations, if that's heaven, that would be a very happy place to live, indeed.

How do you know you are in line for heaven anyway?
Those who go to Heaven are the ones that died a death like his, (Jesus) and they are to rule as kings over the Earth.
(This is the heavenly governmnet you pray for in the Lords prayer, "Let thy Kingdom come")

More likely you will be as the rest of us that are part of the Ressurection here on Earth where in perfection you will be looking after animals and gardening, the things we where originally created to do before Satan stole us from God.

And just exactly what is that supposed to mean?

According to evolution and science, we weren't originally created, nor were we created for a purpose. The only inherent "purpose", if you wish to call it that, we had for existing was surviving, and that's not even a moral purpose. Although I suppose people like to stick to the "original purpose" story because it's more comforting.

My theory is that Earth is like a training ground for our souls, as it is our purpose to advance ourselves spiritually to achieve godhead status.. Which I am far from with still so much to learn and evolve, as in I will need another lifetime or two for sure. Ive got a few more chances left. Discuss what you want from there, I refuse to get any further into it.