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Abangyarudo
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13 Dec 2007, 7:11 am

jfrmeister wrote:
alex wrote:
Any belief other than agnosticism seems pretty unscientific to me so I find it odd that atheists are generally scientific people.


This says more about your ignorance of science than anything else.... read Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion.


Atheists believe in no God generally they believe in science which is a religion to itself because much of it flies in the face of conventional reasoning. If you have noticed there are no facts in science despite popular belief they are often changed and rewritten due to that very fact.

Agnosticism dictates that I believe that something created the world but I don't know what and how which has more chance of being proven correct then the fact that out of a one in a million chance on several accounts on the theory of creation given by science that we exist without some help in any way, shape, or form. Don't misconstrue my intentions if you believe in science its fine and the fact that the person you quoted spoke in a matter of fact tone may irritate you but I think logic is on his side and if that is his truth then so be it while you may believe in science dismissing someone else's opinion based on some book written by a theorist is kind of illogical but I guess thats just me.



Sand
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13 Dec 2007, 8:18 am

Believing in a god, it seems to me, is equivalent to believing in anything that has not yet been proved or is even provable. I tend to be conservative in my beliefs and accept practically only those things which have physically observable attributes. This, of course, gets down to what belief means. There are all sorts of possibilities in the universe whose existence is not at this time observable, but I frankly cannot say I believe in them.



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13 Dec 2007, 8:27 am

Well at least you are only irritated by the atheists with rabies. There can't be too many of them. On the other hand most of the "rabid atheists" would be wildlife and there probably is a decent number of rabies cases in the wild...

Thous seriously where do you find these "rabid atheists" at. I'm an atheists and no many, but when it the only rabid behavior i've ever seen comes from religious (and generally only Christians) arguing how evil you must be to not believe exactly as they do.
In general the atheists i know are rather passive about their belief systems, (ie, shrugs, ok we believe different) - unless directly confronted, accused of being evil, etc.

I've yet to see a group of atheists going around accosting people to get them to convert to atheists. I have seen Christians do that several times, and I've even seen posts by Christians (not on this forum) about how they'll approach people in grocery stores to ask if they've been saved. To me thats rabid behavior and has no place in free civilized society



sojournertruth
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13 Dec 2007, 2:27 pm

Image



Witt
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13 Dec 2007, 6:33 pm

jfrmeister wrote:
alex wrote:
Any belief other than agnosticism seems pretty unscientific to me so I find it odd that atheists are generally scientific people.


This says more about your ignorance of science than anything else.... read Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion.




[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QERyh9YYEis[/youtube]

:lol: :lol: :lol:


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13 Dec 2007, 8:41 pm

jfrmeister wrote:
alex wrote:
Any belief other than agnosticism seems pretty unscientific to me so I find it odd that atheists are generally scientific people.


This says more about your ignorance of science than anything else.... read Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion.


This says more about your ignorance of religion than anything else... read Dinesh D'Souza's What's So Great About Christianity?
Or Mere Christianity?
Or Evidence that Demands a Verdict?



jfrmeister
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14 Dec 2007, 12:06 am

Chuchulainn wrote:
This says more about your ignorance of religion than anything else... read Dinesh D'Souza's What's So Great About Christianity?
Or Mere Christianity?
Or Evidence that Demands a Verdict?


Evidence can't demand a verdict. Evidence can only point to a possible theory.

Ignorance of religion isn't an insult. Since thier claims can't be backed up by evidence, they're books about nothing.


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sojournertruth
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14 Dec 2007, 1:18 am

can people see the visual I posted? It seemed to come up earlier, but now I only see a little box with a question mark.



jfrmeister
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14 Dec 2007, 1:25 am

sojournertruth wrote:
can people see the visual I posted? It seemed to come up earlier, but now I only see a little box with a question mark.


I see it... and I saved it!! !! Thumbs up for posting that dude!! !!


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14 Dec 2007, 3:18 am

Sojournertruth, I can't see your visual either.

Jfrmeister, your role model Thomas Jefferson seemed to have misspelled both Christian and character. The extra 'h' in "charachter" would be more useful if it replaced the missing 'h' in "cristian." Then again, it's disputed if Thomas Jefferson actually made those spelling mistakes or even that quote.

It's unlikely that Thomas Jefferson ever wrote:
"The cristian god is a being of terrific charachter; cruel, vindictive, capricious and unjust"



Sand
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14 Dec 2007, 10:50 am

I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. - Thomas Jefferson



jfrmeister
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14 Dec 2007, 11:00 am

OddballBen wrote:
Sojournertruth, I can't see your visual either.

Jfrmeister, your role model Thomas Jefferson seemed to have misspelled both Christian and character. The extra 'h' in "charachter" would be more useful if it replaced the missing 'h' in "cristian."


SPEELING NATZEE ALERT!! !

Quote:
Then again, it's disputed if Thomas Jefferson actually made those spelling mistakes or even that quote.


Thomas Jefferson was a Deist 9almost an atheist) who hated much of the bible. It's perfectly inline with many other statements about religion he made.

It's unlikely that Thomas Jefferson ever wrote:
"The cristian god is a being of terrific charachter; cruel, vindictive, capricious and unjust"
[/quote]


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nominalist
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14 Dec 2007, 12:11 pm

In fact, Jefferson put together his own version of the Bible. It is aptly called, The Jefferson Bible. He removed all the miracles:

http://www.angelfire.com/co/JeffersonBible/


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14 Dec 2007, 1:16 pm

jfrmeister wrote:
Ignorance of religion isn't an insult. Since thier claims can't be backed up by evidence, they're books about nothing.


What evidence you have to claim the right that they don't have evidence?

What evidence you have that Richard Dawkins entity exist?






Sand wrote:
Believing in a god, it seems to me, is equivalent to believing in anything that has not yet been proved or is even provable.


Can you prove me that you exist?

Believing in nature,it seems to me,is equivalent to believing in something that has not yet been proved or is even provable.

Since science can prove what is within that supposed nature and its alegged parts ,but cannot prove nature as such.
To prove nature as such,science must be outside nature,but this is impossible since science is naturalistic.
So basically science cannot even prove its basic naturalistic premise.


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OddballBen
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14 Dec 2007, 4:50 pm

jfrmeister wrote:
SPEELING NATZEE ALERT!! !


It's true :oops:
(bi teh wey, "alert" shoold halv bin speeled alirt)

I wouldn't normally correct your spelling, but because it's in your signature and being posted over 300 times, I thought you would want to know.



jfrmeister wrote:
Thomas Jefferson was a Deist 9almost an atheist) who hated much of the bible. It's perfectly inline with many other statements about religion he made.


I don't doubt that. In fact it is so in line with what he has already said, that it seems likely that someone copied and pasted together some of Thomas Jefferson's phrases to get that statement.

Thomas Jefferson's letter to William Short (Aug 4, 1820) wrote:
His object was the reformation of some articles in the religion of the Jews, as taught by Moses. That sect had presented for the object of their worship, a being of terrific character, cruel, vindictive, capricious and unjust.


Another version of your quote said something like:
Jefferson wrote:
The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites.


Those quotes are similar, I'll admit to that. There is a problem with proving that Jefferson never wrote that quote, though. In order to do that, we would have to find out who did write it, which is next to impossible.



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14 Dec 2007, 8:14 pm

twoshots wrote:
Anyone else here find strong atheists extremely grating? I'm not just looking for loony theists here: I can't be the only one who finds them spectacularly irritating.

1) I'm something of a positivist. Yes, philosophy buffs, I know. Lower your guns, I'm impervious. I only view positive claims about the world which can be tested, and the rejection of which will result in a measurable real world butt kicking to all who fail to yield them, as meaningfully interpersonally objective.
2) "There is no God" is not a positive claim, per se. You can't test it. Thus, emotional investment in it (particularly if you view yourself as all infinitely more rational) is silly
3) To the "teapot agnostic" argument: yes, I'm a teapot agnostic. Any and all claims about untestable "reality" are in limbo so to speak: I, hesitatingly, might even call them somewhat nonsensical propositions which ought rather to be banished from our language. It could be there, there's no reason I can't believe in it; it makes no difference provided I do not grant it undue consideration in my actions, which leads me to...
4) Morality isn't positive. Thus, using God as a premise for moral action is equally stupid to using anything, at all. Unless you are an egotistical "I will thus" person, but then I guess you have your head on tight enough not to be worrying about dead gods.
5) Borrowed language: most people who I run into who count themselves as strong atheists use arguments, language etc., which are plagiaristically identical to the language used by the atheistic talking heads of the world. Sure fine; but then they make jokes about theists being brainwashed, sheeplike, unable to think for themselves, etc. Gold.
6) The fact that they want to cast this as a function of stupidity. Your philisophical premises aren't positive either, including your epistemological values; anything beyond (non moral) utilitarian heuristics is not objective for any two individuals who are supposed to share nothing more than a rational mind and a universe
7) I hate emotions :evil:

I don't even object to holding strong atheistic beliefs, including all the points I tried to criticize above; I just can't stand the self righteous invective. So, who's with me? And why aren't you one of them? (*preferably not simply because you believe in god and you don't like people who don't. I don't believe in your god either). Alternatively, why should I be one of them?


IMO the Atheist vs Agnostic thing is a misleading distinction. Most atheists are agnostics and most agnostic are atheists, the main difference is a matter of emphasis. The Agnostic emphasizes lack of knowledge or evidence of a higher power while the Atheist emphasizes lack of belief. In my experience there are very few Atheists that actually assert with absolute certainty there is no God. The "Angry Atheist" talking point is nothing but theists with sour grapes ticked off that us non-believers are sick of the bigotry against us.


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