Vermont Secession

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Of course, the dems may have caved on impeachment because they're not sure they want their own, democratic Speaker of the House to become President without having being "elected" by the people.

I think they'd rather take a chance on the electorate than the brouhaha they would raise with an actual impeachment.

Well anyway, they still are war criminals.

is that what you where told to think by the baby boomers who chickened out during vietnam and went to college to avoid the draft and now run the media, schools and run for elected offices ? ever stop and think they are all suffering from a guilt trip, I doubt you ever stopped to think period about anything on your own.

he is probably a baby boomer that got out of going to vietnam by fleeing to canada or hiding out on a college campus

LMAO!

Yea! Good ole' South Caroliner. Damn that John Brown and his Southern hating ways! Damn Fort Sumter! and damn that Lincoln!



No state can secede or would ever want to secede. How can it? What military would support it? What politicians would back it? Trade would collapse. Who will trade with it? How will this new country sustain itself? You got to be kidding me if you believe it is going to be successful as a closed economy. What of its constitution? What about the people's basic rights? Who will prevent human rights violation?


Damn them Unions!!

California would be better off independent. Currently we pay out more in taxes than we receive in services (most blue states do); we have the best ports on the west coast; we have the best agricultural valleys on the west coast, and among the best in the nation; we have silicon valley; we have oil, sun, and wind; we have an extant constitution. Heck, we have the governator! What we don't have is the ability to secede written into the constitution of the state of california.

Ironically, Vermont's current governor, Jim Douglas, is a Republican.

so how would your ports and farms do without the market called the other 47 states attached to them ?

The USA could close the roads & railroads going into the state off and starve the state to death in a few weeks. Ban all TV & Movie's produced in CA, ban flights between CA & the USA. Power & water supplies might also be an issue if they where cut off from crossing the boarder.

all surface trade by land between CA & canada could be cut off along with pipelines and oil from alaska.

liberals control the legislative body, so he is only a veto against some of their crap

Can this be true? Someone here has reason??

Reason? Lol!

If, could, probably, would. But why?

OMG! California seceded, we shall starve them out for the, what? Why the hell would USA starve California out? OMG! California seceded, we shall cut off their oil and refuse to trade with those bastards, who do they think they are, they must think they are better than us, wanting to separate from us and all. OMG! We are petty and powerful! Let's crush them with our big clubs, me Ug Say Arrr!
/sarcasm

I always heard marijuana is California's #1 cash crop. No kidding.

I meant reason as in understanding the ridiculous nature of conjuring such a thought as secession from the U.S.


Now to humor you a bit: I sure as hell would starve the life out of California for seceding from my U.S. It is mutiny. It is disruption of commerce, of society (anarchy/treason). Who will trade with California that it is now a free country? Cuba, Venezuela, and Burma? lol. Who will risk trading with California, the country that snubbed the U.S. because they felt it was a burden to their will?

Who will fund transportation? Where will they get their food and materials in time of scarcity?

Again, who will protect the rights of the people? Who will be there to ensure there is political stability? If anarchy ensues, what military will defend the nation (the National Guards, Army, Navy, Marines, Airforce are all of the U.S)? Do you believe the police force will protect the people? Do you think the government will easily pass tax-laws that will fund everything in society to protect and ensure its sovereignty?

You are also forgetting that it will be a severe threat to the legitimacy and stability of the United States--an act of aggression against such a provocateur would be the only proper response.




Oh yes, we all must love the Articles of Confederation. Just look at the United Nations and how much they get done! Oh...wait...what?

I do not want to pick a fight, am no good at debating, merely wish to say: as Vermont resident (for a dozen years), am relatively happy here-and that the government is not nearly "liberal" enough for my tastes/beliefs/values.
There are good & bad aspects to notion of any state seceding from nation-I feel same way about impeachment (of Bush).
I'm both (or neither, depending) for & against it, which is contradictory but doesn't mean I don't have strong feelings. Am intensely ambivalent about these & many other issues and canot make up my mind/come to a single conclusion.
In some ways, I'm extremely liberal, in other ways am stuck in-between, "moderate" I guess. Doesn't mean I don't care, means I'm equally convinced by both sides & cannot pick either one over the other. Nor does this make me devoid of opinion or position on political matters-but since I can't choose/commit to a set/single message, I avoid adding my thoughts to such discussions. There's a quote (am paraphrasing it very roughly) about liberals being "too liberal to take their own side in an argument"...

How do you handle the cognitive dissonance of simultaneously saying that California will perish without a market for all of the food that we produce, and that we will perish as the US 'starves us out'?

The US isn't the only country in the world, by the way. A lot of our trade is with other Pacific Rim countries - we send a lot of rice to China and Japan in particular. Yes, by the way, pot is the biggest cash crop here (and, IIrc, in the entire U.S.). We have excellent ports, as well as a significant length of shared border with Mexico.

We already function quite well, with very little help from 'Uncle Sam.' Our government is more democratic and protects more of our freedoms than that of the United States. There is absolutely no reason to dissolve the extant California system just because we no longer want to be allied with a bunch of war-mongering, homophobic, chickenhawk blow hards who somehow fail to see the irony in advocating for 'smaller government' while simultaneously spending billions on a pointless war and authorizing unconstitutional warrentless spying on U.S. citizens.

the U.S. will 'respond to the threat against it,' eh? Them, and what army? Every soldier the U.S. has is either stuck in the quicksand of Iraq or Afghanistan, or home trying to maintain their sanity in between 'stop-loss' deployments.

Economics, my friend.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Production ... s_frontier

That is the foundation...but what when there's scarcity? To whom will the Californians trade with in exchange for food? The U.N. will have no power in convincing the U.S. to change their stance. Mexico will 'no help' California, neither will Canada, nor any other country.


If California broke apart it would become a Closed-Economy. Not by choice, but because of the pressure the U.S. will enforce. A closed economy has no chance at progress. You will survive, but survive in poverty.




The oceans are run by the U.S. Navy, the skies by the U.S. Air Force. Would you like to threatened a world superpower by trying to fly or sail through U.S. territory?




So what if somehow the people elect a ruthless, rabid, right wing to office or steals the election?, What if a Fundamental Evangelical paramilitary group pulls a coup on the new region of Kaliforniastan? Will the happy, peace-loving liberals of Kaliforniastan be able to protect themselves knowing they have the military capability of Iceland or Costa Rica?




There are over 1,400,000 militarymen on duty currently, with another 1,400,000 in reserves. I highly doubt they're all in Iraq and Afghanistan.