Christians Please Read

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Good point.

I pretty much agree that Snake went off on a rag, here. I read carefully Krista's comment and found it exceptionally well worded and not insulting or demeaning to anyone. More specifically, I took Krista's words, "... my faith (it's not a religion) ..." to be an indication about the personal nature of belief and that faith isn't necessarily taken, lock, stock, and barrel from an organized religion (religion connotes 'organized' and 'priesthood' to me, while spirituality or faith or belief permits a personal, non-organized nature [though it can also mean a tight connection to organized systems, too.]) That didn't mean to me a suggestion of the idea that Christianity isn't a religion and I would guess, if asked, that Krista knows full well that Christianity has many organized religious forms and that while it can refer to one of those, it can also be used to mean instead a personal faith that isn't attached to any specific organized dogma but does derive from reading scriptures which are "Christian," by and large.

I didn't feel any temptation to write here, because I think Christians of various ilks _do_ need to have, and certainly deserve, a safe place to talk about issues from their perspectives from a positive point of view. In the back of my mind, I was thinking that I might suggest a small question of interpretation from their point of view so that I could better understand how the people writing here might see something I look at and wonder about. But I would NOT bring up subjects here that question belief on a profound level, but instead ones that might provide me some insights about Christian beliefs. I suppose if I saw something directly insulting towards outsiders, I'd be tempted to say something. But sheesh!! Krista went to lengths not to do that, with the only caveat I could see being "they can be really offensive at times," but even there I understand and didn't find that itself as offensive. More a statement of fact and about reasoning for this thread.

I thought this was a fair and generously started thread and of no threat to anyone.

Jon

P.S. Leave them a soft path, Snake. We don't have one and we've learned not to need one. Our feet, out of necessity of just going from place to place in life, are thickened by callouses developed from travelling over rough religious territories that are present everywhere so that we can now walk even on hot coals as the need requires and barely even notice a cutting remark. But Christians in the US are used to traveling on familiar and comfortable paths and it is easy for them to have a full life without being forced to walk over difficult land, which they can and do quite easily just walk around with only the slightest adjustment of their pace. Some may naturally prefer to seek green grass to walk on and we should allow them that. That we cannot have such gentle pastures doesn't mean others shouldn't.

I don't really know what life is like where you are, but certainly where I reside, it is quite possible to find priests whose way of doing things is in line with traditional masculinity and right-wing views (as well as everything in between the two extremes) if you look and you are willing to travel to a church that fits in with your way of doing things.

What's your view on the Reformation that was kicked off by Martin Luther? I view it as the best thing that has happened to the autistic community since biblical times because one of the fundamental parts of it was a freedom to follow one's own conscience. In my view, this freedom lead to individualism being accepted in Western society, which I think is nothing but a good thing for people on the autistic spectrum. Sometimes when I travel in countries that are Roman Catholic at heart (Colombia being one example), people look at me with an enormous amount of incredulity when I say that I am travelling alone.

I couldn't agree more. There is also the part about going and making disciples of all the nations.

If you find something that is absolutely wonderful, it is only natural to want to share it. If someone won't talk about their faith openly because our society's implicit codes of conduct frown upon it, it is questionable whether God's rules or society's implicit rules take a higher priority in that person's life.

I'm very pleased to see you posting here, as there are many people posting in these forums who have militant atheist views.

I think the issue has to do with the fact that a person's faith is a very private and personal manner, and, regardless of intentions, "spreading" yours often comes across as intrusive and may actually have the opposite effect. From a middle-ground agnostic's point of view, you can do more by setting a good example than by preaching.

I respect militant atheists and pious Christians equally, and I am equally irked if they attempt to force their beliefs upon me (which happens on both sides).

Jesus indeed concentrated most of his efforts on "the lost sheep of Israel", as he put it, but we were still called to go and make disciples of all the nations.

I'm not sure I share the view that my faith is not for everybody, particularly in light of Jesus' statement in John 14:6, when he said "I am the way, the truth and and the life. No-one comes to the father except by me."

I agree that rational scientific thought is necessary to convince people of the truth of Christianity. I'm aware that in many parts of the USA, there are rules making it difficult to teach evolution. I don't like this because I think the purpose of the school system is to teach children how to think rather than to teach them what to believe (i.e. indoctrinate them). Instead, the US school system should be allowing children to examine both sides of the debate in class and allowing them to make up their own minds. I am confident that my faith will stand up the scrutiny of logical questioning.

I have no problem with Creationism, as long as it's taught in a religious or cultural context. It does not belong in science class, a controversy that I never understood, because even the pious admit that it's faith and not science. I respect belief, but regardless of whether or not you accept the theory of Evolution, it has stood up to scientific rigor and skepticism because it is the theory that our currently available facts and evidence point to.

Phagocyte, um, it was in secular colleges studying biochemistry and biology that I lost my faith in evolution. (oh, and by the way, I adore phagocytes and wanted a poster of them, not available then, but maybe now....) I read a lot of Stephen Gould (and cried when his cancer killed him) hoping he would convert me back so I could stop being called a pinhead, but his arguments were never persuasive enough.

When you offer a unifying theory which predicts better, your opinion about evolution will be worthwhile to hear. As things stand, it's far and away the best (and only) quantitative, predictive theory we have on the subject and it has been marvelously successful, so far.

But we should move this to a different thread. This is supposed to be a safe haven for discussing shared superstitions, I think.

Jon

It's bunk. If you are offering to leave, go ahead.

Evolution isn't. But yes, I actually am offering to take this elsewhere. I think the OP was very sweet and this isn't the thread for proceeding on a discussion of evolution. Assuming, of course, others are also willing.

Jon

Our personal relationships with God should be private, as in Jesus' recommendation to pray in private rather than on display. This does not mean that we should never pray with anyone else, but if you read the passage, Jesus is criticizing those who used to deliberately make a show of themselves during their "prayers" (self-boasts), and who disfigured their faces to appear as if they had fasted for God so very long, "Oh, how pious I am! Look upon my humility!", etc. It's these types of people who are on the fast track to Hell, actually. My dad, also a Christian, used to say, "Jesus didn't like religious people." It's really true! Those who offended Him most were the highest and most respected religious leaders of the day. As we know, He dressed them down as "hypocrites", "vipers", "whited sepulchures -- clean and bright on the outside, but inside full on dead mens' bones and all corruption". He didn't mince words, did he?

But our very status as Christians is not something we should feel we need to guard as secret. Indeed, we are here to proclaim Christ and His forgiveness -- not hide Him from the world:

"Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." (Matt 5:14-16)

And indeed,

"But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven." (Matt 10:33)

So, since Jesus is our mediator before God -- He who declares us "innocent" to the Righteous Judge -- I'm guessing we don't want Him to "deny" us to God! I pay special attention to that verse, because, yes, even I have had moments of wanting to "hide my light" because it's more convenient in various circumstances in this sinful world. People will accept you more if you go with the flow of the world, rather than stand up for God and His message. So, I am very careful not to turn down the volume on that Christian song when people are near me, or cease verbal prayer when I thought I was in private but then realize I'm not. Such cessation would only be valid if you were braggingly praying -- which should never be done. Sincere praying, however, is nothing to ever cease out of shame. Because God has news for you: If you're ashamed to be a Christian in full view of everyone, you aren't one. Jesus said He will be ashamed of you to God, who is your final judge, and that he will deny you as being His own -- which is the only way anyone gets into Heaven.

Last edited by Ragtime on 14 Feb 2008, 12:32 pm, edited 6 times in total.

I study biology as well, and found that it only reinforced my interest in Evolution since many of my questions were answered and it made a lot of sense. I respect that you do not support Evolution, and science strengthens itself through varying viewpoints. However, the currently available facts do point to Evolution, which is why I logically find it viable.



Yeah...if it was bunk, it wouldn't be the accepted theory that most trained scientists support. However, I do respect (and admire the attitude of) the OP, so I will not discuss this any further.

Last edited by Ragtime on Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:32 am; edited 6 times in total

unholy number! to make it holy again please edit it one more time to the number 7

*gives you the boog eyes*



nobody can resist, now feed me fish crackers!

Thank you, its so hard to be a Christian when so many people try to tear you down for believing the way they do.

I was/am a believer, and I think that the was/am has something to do with my experience and with the autistic spectrum. I grew up in a separatist, fundamentalist Baptist association, have believed since I was three, and was baptized at seven. My father was an ordained Southern Baptist minister, although he never had a congregation after I was born. I also attended private fundamentalist schools from the 3rd grade through the 8th. In college I stopped attending the particular association I was raised in because it was too cut off from other Christians - the church felt that they were the only ones who believed correctly.

I was content in my belief in Christ and active in the church I attended until I was thirty. Then my father, whom all that knew him thought was a Godly man, died of pneumonia, AIDS-related, that he probably contracted from other men. My family didn't find out until after he was dead and we had buried him.

My dad died over a decade ago. I don't blame God, and I have reconciled that my father was troubled, but my spiritual feeling is gone. My mother and sister's faiths have strengthened since Dad's death, but I honestly can't tell where my faith went. Some times there is a glimmer that it is still there, but usually only when I hear or sing certain church music. I think that having a pretty strong emotional dysregulation due to how my brain developed (ASD), I might never experience faith again.

I also have a strongly logical mind, and many things that Christians believe (that don't have anything to do with salvation) aren't logical. I know that faith is faith and logic is logic, but too often Christians cling to interpretations that they find appealing (such as a "young earth") that have little basis in the realities of this earth and are vague in the Bible.

So here I am, some days believing and other days not, and I am OK with that. I mostly don't talk about it because I don't think there is anything that anyone can do to help my situation. It is between God and me and hopefully time will be healing.

Z

It's a shame too many churches feel they are the only ones with the correct take on faith and so cut themselves off from all other churches. Near where I live, there is an Exclusive Brethren place in a village called Coleford. They insist on doctrinal agreement on every single point and so the nearest church they will have anything to do with is in a faraway town called Glastonbury. This was told to me by a member of my church who was brought up in this background, but ended up parting from it for similar reasons to you (that and the fact that they were coming out with loads of nonsensical doctrines that had no basis in the scriptures).

I am currently a Baptist, although my background is Anglican (notice any similarities with John McCain?). However, there are quite wide variations in the Baptist movement.

On one hand, there are some Baptist churches in the northern states of the USA that approve of everything just to appear trendy to society, whereas on the other end of the extreme, there is Westboro Baptist Church, home of the "God Hates Fags" campaign.

Unfortunately, your father's case of being a respected minister, but living a lifestyle of faggotry is far from unique among evangelicals. The most famous example in recent times is that of Ted Haggard, who ran a large evangelical congregation in Colorado Springs, Colorado.