When does life commence?

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iamnotaparakeet
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31 Mar 2008, 7:32 pm

BesideYouInTime wrote:

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

So, now the argument as to when a human becomes sentient. *sigh* Well, at least you aren't like some who seem to imply that a fetus mystically becomes human after it completely passes through the magical tunnel of the birth canal...

Sentience isn't a good metric because newborns really aren't aware of their own independent existance for quite some time. Some people who are born severely disabled will never be sentient.

Perhaps so. What is your measure of valuing a life?

Phagocyte
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31 Mar 2008, 7:37 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

That's why it's such a tricky issue!

I can see both sides, obviously it's foolish to believe the vagina can cast some wacky spell that evokes sentience from a newborn, but it is equally foolish to believe that the moment the spermatozoa and ovum unite they "a person."

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31 Mar 2008, 7:38 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

Perhaps so. What is your measure of valuing a life?

That's a deeper question than the argument goes. Any line we draw will be arbitrary. I choose to draw it at birth because I'm primary concerned with the personal liberty of the mother. If we moved it to six months of gestation, someone would ask about six months minus one day, and so forth.

You might say I become progressively more interested in the welfare of the fetus as gestational age increases. I'm not at all concerned about a fertilized egg, but a day away from a live birth I'd be very concerned.

iamnotaparakeet
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31 Mar 2008, 8:14 pm

Phagocyte wrote:

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

That's why it's such a tricky issue!

Why is it foolish to recognize a fertilized egg a person; sure it's true that the egg dividing and multiplying would superficially appear nonhuman, but what is it really? I know there are many names to the stages of human development which could be used and abused, but beyond terminology what is it? Is it a person, albeit one you haven't met before, or what is it?

monty
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31 Mar 2008, 8:34 pm

Why is it that people can apply for a driver's license on their 16th birthday? Or join the army at a particular age, or vote or buy alcohol at a particular age? Are they really less mature at 16 minus one day, or 21 minus one day?? I don't think so. Some people are ready earlier, some later.

Point is: sometimes arbitrary decisions have to be made. When it comes to drinking and driving and smoking and buying guns, the stakes and emotions might not be so high. But our system is dependent on criteria that are somewhat arbitrary.

iamnotaparakeet
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31 Mar 2008, 8:50 pm

monty wrote:

Sounds like a system that needs to be changed.

For driving, physical size and emotional maturity would be proper factors (perhaps not all).
For guns, only people who are emotionally and financially stable should own them, maybe other criteria would be needed. Those type of things need to be based on personal criteria, but a choice to artificially end a human life? Should that be so? It wasn't the baby's choice to be conceived, but after the life has started should it be ended. The child is innocent and doesn't deserve capital punishment.

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31 Mar 2008, 8:55 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

Perhaps it does need to be changed, perhaps not. Really though, how do you effectively measure emotional maturity or stability? Sounds like your idea would be a good way to start a good bureaucracy going. You are right, it was not the baby's choice to be conceived, so why should it mind if it is now aborted? Who can really say what the child deserves? Why does it deserve anything at all?

Phagocyte
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31 Mar 2008, 9:01 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

Why is it foolish to recognize a fertilized egg a person; sure it's true that the egg dividing and multiplying would superficially appear nonhuman, but what is it really?

It is a zygote, a single cell with human DNA. It is not a thinking, feeling, loving person. Do you pass by an acorn lying on the ground but admire the beautiful oak tree?

It's extremely foolish because having the capability to become a human does not make it so. I have not "met" it before because it is incapable of being "met," as it is a single cell with absolutely no sense of being, no sense of pain, nothing. Every time you swat a gnat you kill a creatures of much greater complexity than the zygote that you are defending on the grounds that it's abortion is murder.

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Sand
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31 Mar 2008, 10:25 pm

All this concern over a piece of tissue with the potential to become a human being is, at minimum, quite ironic. Human society has institutions to guarantee social continuity such as the military that not only regularly kills threatening living sentient humans but, as regularly occurs in Iraq and Israel, kills anybody who happens to be standing near the target with very little social criticism. Killing is part of living and, although it can be tragic it is sometimes necessary for maintenance of life. All human tissue, innocent or otherwise, has no special right to be alive. It is up to society and individuals who might be harmed to decide whether or not to permit an incipient organism to continue to live. The processes of staying alive demand very hard decisions at times and there are no easy solutions.

iamnotaparakeet
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01 Apr 2008, 12:53 am

Phagocyte wrote:

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

Why is it foolish to recognize a fertilized egg a person; sure it's true that the egg dividing and multiplying would superficially appear nonhuman, but what is it really?

When does it become human then?

iamnotaparakeet
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01 Apr 2008, 12:54 am

Sand wrote:

At least soldiers can defend themselves.

Sand
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01 Apr 2008, 1:02 am

And those families in Iraq and Gaza that are hit by rockets in the middle of the night by a misdirected attack which is more the norm than the exception?

iamnotaparakeet
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01 Apr 2008, 1:08 am

Sand wrote:

And those families in Iraq and Gaza that are hit by rockets in the middle of the night by a misdirected attack which is more the norm than the exception?

Not sure which exactly you're referring to, have a link?

Awesomelyglorious
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01 Apr 2008, 1:31 am

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

When does it become human then?

Well, why not when we say it does? Human is a label, the only reason it is important is that it carries with it certain legal rights. If I wanted to say that ages below 3 weren't human, then why not? Honestly, can you prove that 3 year olds are actually human? You can prove that they genetically belong to the human species perhaps but we are using human to mean "people", and you might be able to prove that they show a certain amount of intelligence, but that does not necessarily warrant legal personhood. They are people when we want them to be.

Sand
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01 Apr 2008, 3:04 am

If you are not even marginally following the conflicts in Gaza and Iraq there is no point of discussing the matter. Look it up yourself.

Phagocyte
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01 Apr 2008, 5:20 am

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

When does it become human then?

If I knew that, then I would have the whole issue figured out.

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