The worst thing about religion

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slowmutant
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18 Aug 2008, 10:55 am

Again and again, you guys run up against the nature of belief. Turn around, go the other way!

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18 Aug 2008, 10:56 am

But that's just it; a theory can be proven wrong, it's a concept within the scientific method. However, such a method does not apply to religion, it's faith, and faith is believing in something without any logical reason to do so. It's not science.

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slowmutant
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18 Aug 2008, 10:58 am

Phagocyte wrote:

Thank you. Amazing how hard-headed some people are.

benjimanbreeg
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18 Aug 2008, 11:04 am

haha, but say its proved, that there is just no way its true? Mother Nature made us, there's no other explination.

slowmutant
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18 Aug 2008, 11:05 am

And who do you think "Mother Nature" actually is?

Phagocyte
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18 Aug 2008, 11:05 am

slowmutant wrote:

Phagocyte wrote:

Thank you. Amazing how hard-headed some people are.

Your welcome. I think this thread purpose is misguided.

To try to apply scientific principles to people's faith and claiming people of faith are "cavemen" is not only abrasive, but entirely missing the point. It's kind of funny, as an scientifically-minded agnostic I oppose the teaching of an intelligent designer in schools because it was faith, and to claim it was science and to teach it as such was to miss the point. Now this attempt to apply scientific rules to religion is exactly the same, but in reverse, which I find oddly poetic and proves that abrasive zealotry comes from both sides of the philosophical fence.

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benjimanbreeg
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18 Aug 2008, 11:22 am

slowmutant wrote:

And who do you think "Mother Nature" actually is?

lol, not god! and the thing that gives away the whole god theory is the adam and eve thing. humans have only been here for like thousands of years, but the earth has been here for millions.

corroonb
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18 Aug 2008, 11:23 am

Is "faith" somehow immune from rational argument? Is it not a concept held by some without reason?

I do not understand the need for a concept when there is no proof. Religion should not be exempt from rational argument and neither should any other form of human thought.

I don't believe the logical discussion of a religion is a form of zealotry. Why is it a form of zealotry? Why is religion an untouchable idea?

If I told you it was my religion that the earth was 3,000 years old and created by a race of sentient lizards, you would ask me why I believe this. I would say that it is because of my faith and is not open to argument. I would be holding irrational opinions identical to those held by the religious.

How is it possible for some humans to understand "faith" and other snot to? Why do I not understand it? Am I being willfully ignorant of what is so apparent and obvious to the enlightened?

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18 Aug 2008, 12:08 pm

corroonb wrote:

Is "faith" somehow immune from rational argument? Is it not a concept held by some without reason?

To some extent, yes.

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I do not understand the need for a concept when there is no proof.

Outside of pure mathematics, there is never really "proof" of anything. And even in mathematics, concepts are put forward without proof- called postulates or axioms. If you tried to only use the concepts in mathematics for which there is proof,, you would be left with little because all the proven concepts in mathematics are built off of the unproven postulates. Essentially, the infinite regress argument prevents one from ever having absolute certainty or proof about anything, and we all take many things on faith.

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If I told you it was my religion that the earth was 3,000 years old and created by a race of sentient lizards, you would ask me why I believe this. I would say that it is because of my faith and is not open to argument. I would be holding irrational opinions identical to those held by the religious.

I could say that it is necessary to "put the prophet to the test," but if we are not in agreement on the historical validity of events recorded in the New Testament, it is difficult to apply that standard to Christianity.

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Orwell
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18 Aug 2008, 12:14 pm

greenblue wrote:

Orwell wrote:

No, science is not the only legitimate way to understand the world. And mind you, I've a strong bias towards science myself, but to claim that it is the only way to seek knowledge is just outright silly. Why then do fields such as philosophy even exist? "Science is a system for understanding reality" well, not quite.

The way I see this is that the system for understanding reality was atribuited to philosophy, and partly of why other fields of philosophy exist is because they are older than science.

Now, someone that claims that 'the only way to know is science' to be silly, well, we should question why is it necessarily silly? you disagree with it I can see, but are they actually incorrect, must they be necessarily incorrect and why? After all, as you stated, there are different fields, scientific empiricism or empirical skepticism, as an example, accepting things and ideas as real only when they are testable and have had succesfully passed the scientific method. Doesn't seem silly if one chooses to not go accepting something as factual or real until gaining substantial result, scientific evidence.

Science is not the only way to know because there are other ways of knowing. Not that complicated an idea. And science only answers certain questions. (BTW, I am assuming that by "science" everyone here means natural science, is this correct?) Another problem I see here is that science is just used as a meaningless buzzword. "Scientific evidence?" The scientific method is a great tool that has expanded our knowledge of the world around us, but it is not the answer to life, the universe, and everything (that would be 42 :wink:

)

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Another thing, I agree that science has nothing to do with God, who is God, if he exists or not, or the nature of God, that is a field outside science and it belongs to philosophy and religion, science cannot give an answer to that, however, science can and have disproved claims made related to paranormal activity.

Yes, I agree here. I don't see the overlap between science and religion where they allegedly conflict.

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benjimanbreeg
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18 Aug 2008, 12:22 pm

I like it how no-one can answer about the adam and eve thing

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18 Aug 2008, 12:24 pm

benjimanbreeg wrote:

I like it how no-one can answer about the adam and eve thing

Answer what? Your post about Adam and Eve was incoherent.

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18 Aug 2008, 1:24 pm

slowmutant wrote:

And who do you think "Mother Nature" actually is?

Some people believe that Mother Nature is God.

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benjimanbreeg
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18 Aug 2008, 3:31 pm

Orwell wrote:

benjimanbreeg wrote:

I like it how no-one can answer about the adam and eve thing

Answer what? Your post about Adam and Eve was incoherent.

no it wasn't, religion is incoherent. Still you haven't answered. The whole adam and eve thing doesn't add up. Unless of course they lived for millons of years in exile then suddenly decided to start having sex. :wink:

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18 Aug 2008, 3:34 pm

benjimanbreeg wrote:

Orwell wrote:

benjimanbreeg wrote:

I like it how no-one can answer about the adam and eve thing

Answer what? Your post about Adam and Eve was incoherent.

No, your post really was incoherent and nonsensical. Of course I haven't answered, you haven't asked a comprehensible question for me to address. Restate what you think the issue is with the Adam and Eve story?

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18 Aug 2008, 3:38 pm

benjimanbreeg wrote:

I like it how no-one can answer about the adam and eve thing

Adam and Eve is clearly related to Creationism.

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