War - A necessary evil?

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corroonb
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22 Aug 2008, 11:02 am

Dogbrain wrote:

corroonb wrote:

Believe it or not. Perhaps I am lying. Perhaps not. I do not care what opinion you hold of me or my ideas.

I do not value my life more than the lives of others. My life is of equal value to the lives of others. If this is true, then no lives have any value because it is impossible to say that one life is more valuable than another. So I conclude that all lives are equally worthless.

Therefore, if they are worthless, it cannot be immoral to end them. Worthlessness of life cannot be logically reconciled to preservation of life. If it is actually worthless, then there is no reason to refrain from ending it. You want to have your cake and eat it, too.

You clearly have no understanding. I do not wish to speak to people such as you. You are empty. Your words are as empty as your mind.

If you are of more worth than others, then all your actions are legitimate and you can do no wrong to others by definition because your worth is greater. Only with a consistent concept of equal worth can one have a consistent set of morals.

If your worth is greater than anyone else's, then murder is not an immoral act for you, in fact it is a moral act because your worth supersedes the worth of others.

I do not believe the last two paragraphs because I believe all people are of equal worth.

slowmutant
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22 Aug 2008, 11:07 am

War is one of the hallmarks of an unnecesarily cruel world. It's a necessarily evil inasmuch as conflict and argument cannot be avoided.

Awesomelyglorious
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22 Aug 2008, 11:11 am

corroonb wrote:

Wait, that does not follow, as an action is different than the self, so, even if I am the most valuable person, I could still have a value destroying action(such is possible if the lesser values of others are not properly accounted for). If morality is maximizing value, then I would have acted immorally despite the fact that my life is more valuable than that of other people.

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If your worth is greater than anyone else's, then murder is not an immoral act for you, in fact it is a moral act because your worth supersedes the worth of others.

I do not believe the last two paragraphs because I believe all people are of equal worth.

Well, if my worth is greater than anyone else's then all that is necessarily justified is self-defense.

Sand
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22 Aug 2008, 11:12 am

slowmutant wrote:

Sand wrote:

It is probably the case in many instances that men and women do not knowingly give their lives for others but who take grave chances to protect others. Firemen, policemen, medics in war situations certainly at least put their lives at risk for others. Suicide bombers undoubtedly give their lives knowingly but it is difficult to determine what each instance of that entails - whether it is self sacrifice or revenge or a true belief in a rewarding afterlife. There are certainly cases of soldiers throwing themselves on hand grenades to protect their fellows. And of course there are parents who risk their lives for their children. I wonder how their motivations should be evaluated.

Think instead of your own motivations.

Perhaps you can elaborate.

corroonb
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22 Aug 2008, 11:14 am

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I see. But how does will quantify this value?

corroonb
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22 Aug 2008, 11:16 am

Sand wrote:

slowmutant wrote:

Sand wrote:

Think instead of your own motivations.

Perhaps you can elaborate.

I also do not know what slow mutant means here. Conciseness is not always a desirable quality if it leads to vagueness and confusion.

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22 Aug 2008, 11:19 am

corroonb wrote:

I see. But how does will quantify this value?

We don't need absolute quantities if we are dealing with something variate. All that is necessary is a relationship between the variables, quantities can only exist with measurement, and there is not a technical measurement of moral goods that I know of.

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22 Aug 2008, 2:19 pm

Sand wrote:

War is murder and destruction of property on a massive scale. No doubt if brings change but is it the change you want.?

Yes, in some cases. I think there are very few hear who would disagree with the Union waging war on the confederacy, or the allies against the axis. Some causes are worth fighting for, and yes, worth killing people for.

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Haliphron
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22 Aug 2008, 2:35 pm

The peace movement was one of the most staggering failures of the 20th century. Was isnt a "necessary evil", its an unavoidable fact of life. In fact, we arent the only species that wages war-a good example of this is the Ant :twisted: .

bobbob94
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22 Aug 2008, 5:52 pm

Haliphron wrote:

depends how you define the peace movement. its often equated with anti-war movements, although there's no logical obligation for an anti war movment to be peaceful or non-violent. certainly the anti-war movement played a large role in ending the vietnam war,especially if we allow things like insubordination and rebellion within the army to be considered as part of that. backed up by a climate of opposition and draft evasion, us soldiers were avoiding the enemy, refusing orders and even killing unpopular officers on a massive scale before the us withdrawal from vietnam, which must have contributed massively to the decision to withdraw. another example from much further back- the movement against world war one throughout europe (generally linked to socialist/ communist/ anarchist groups and tendencies) fed into a wave of mutinies on all sides of the conflict that led on to the russian revolution and attempted revolutions in many other countries. so though we can argue about the eventual consequences, the struggle to end wars has certainly had its moments in the 20th century!

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22 Aug 2008, 6:02 pm

Sand wrote:

I don't doubt that the majority of people do not want to be killed and it seems that war does, in general, have a terrible effect o most soldiers who must kill or be killed. Nevertheless I have heard that the pilot who dropped the atomic bomb on Hiroshima and killed around two hundred thousand fairly innocent Japanese had no regrets.

Yeah the pilot was an ass. The Co-pilot was different wrote in the official log just after the bomb went off "my god what have we done"

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DentArthurDent
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22 Aug 2008, 6:22 pm

slowmutant wrote:

War is one of the hallmarks of an unnecesarily cruel world. It's a necessarily evil inasmuch as conflict and argument cannot be avoided.

What a load of BS, we have the capacity to reason, we should use it. I refuse to submit to the human nature arguement that we are inherently vicious so there is no point tring to stop wars. Once again the answer lies in education and truth. we need to stop talking about war hero's in schools and instead focus on the causes of wars, how many people know the causes of WW1, very few, why? Because it is hardly taught in schools. Here in Australia you have kids going around every ANZAC day mouthing the claptrap that we should respect the dead of WW1 because they died so that we could be free, NO THEY DID NOT. The ANZACS were part of an invading force both in europe and Turkey. This is just a small example of what is wrong. Telling the truth about wars and how they started is the first step in preventing them.

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22 Aug 2008, 6:48 pm

Ugh...This is a tough one indeed. I can certainly agree war/killing/murder are terrible things. Necessary? I have never been in the position to kill or make decisions of war, so I can only answer from my own selfish viewpoint. If my country were to be invaded I would fully expect my military to kill 'em all, and I would deem it to be quite necessary. If I were protecting the life of my child I would kill without hesitation or regret, and I would deem it to be quite necessary. Those who would call me evil would be free to do so.

Dox47
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23 Aug 2008, 6:13 am

corroonb wrote:

One can stop mass murder without killing. I believe the police do this all the time without killing the mass-murderer. Correct?

By threatening said killer with killing? How is that morally superior to actually killing him? Sometimes it can be done, sometimes it can't, that's the nature of the business.

As to you personally, whatever you may think intellectually, self preservation is a hardwired instinct, except in extraordinary circumstances it's not so easily overridden. Both of my maternal grandparents suffered long and drawn out terminal illness, and each of them also said repeatedly that they'd rather die then go through a long and drawn out death. Both of them fought tooth and nail to the last agonizing breath breath through every bit of pain and indignity that could be thrown at them. Anecdotal, I know, but convincing if you've been through it. I've just learned that no one really knows how they'll react to the presence of death until it's truly upon them, everything up to that point is just talk.

As far as defending one's life goes, you don't have to value your life more highly than the lives of others in order to do that. It's simply a matter of expedient method, force on force works fairly well, so that's the method I practice. Quite frankly, your view of all lives being equal and force never being justified are really naive, noble in intent perhaps, but naive none the less.

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corroonb
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23 Aug 2008, 6:20 am

Dox47 wrote:

As far as defending one's life goes, you don't have to value your life more highly than the lives of others in order to do that. It's simply a matter of expedient method, force on force works fairly well, so that's the method I practice. Quite frankly, your view of all lives being equal and force never being justified are really naive, noble in intent perhaps, but naive none the less.

The act of defending oneself from violence with violence suggests that you think your life is inherently more worthy than the life of your attacker.

What does expedient method mean?

Evasion is the best way of avoiding violence, running and hiding.

I value all life equally. If you tried to kill me and I couldn't escape, I would let you kill me because I value your life as much as mine. I do not value my life more than your life, if I did I would be justified in killing you in self-defence.

Sand
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23 Aug 2008, 6:29 am

Since you are obviously a rather decent guy and any vicious jerk who wants to kill you might also want to kill lots of other people isn't it worthwhile to stop him/her?

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