Religionists: Is Murder Wrong? If So, Explain Why

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anna-banana
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30 Dec 2008, 12:49 pm

^^yes, that's what common sense says. unfortunately the Catholic church lacks it in that respect :p

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NeantHumain
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30 Dec 2008, 7:26 pm

slowmutant wrote:

If I am asked to kill in God's name, who is that really wants to me to commit murder-- God or man? When God conveniently hates the people you hate, you can be certain you're being manipulated by your fellow man. Holy wars, crusades, jihads, all these things are just socio-political machinations, power-grabs, land-grabs. Why would God who is all-powerful need me to do His killing for Him?

I do not expect that God --the real God-- would ever ask me to kill for Him.

Who told you the god you're thinking of is the real one, and why do you believe him or her? What if the sadistic god is the real one? What if they're both real? What if your god actually has good days and bad days? How do you know your god isn't ordaining these violent power and land grabs?

NeantHumain
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30 Dec 2008, 7:33 pm

z0rp wrote:

Meh, in general it can be argued unfair or immoral to kill animals for food, but we have to or we'll die. Of course obviously we also eat plants but that's just as bad considering they're also living. So we do have to kill to live whether it's technically right or wrong. And I was just pointing out in general that the animals we kill to live also kill to live. Then again that doesn't really apply to plants as all they do is just soak up water and sunlight.

Slaughtering animals predestined to die for just that purpose is different from animals being hunted for food in a hunter-gatherer society. Obviously humans can and do survive by only eating vegetable matter. Also, the difference between animal and plants is sentience. Can plants feel? Of course, one wonders, can a human being in a coma feel?

Orwell
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30 Dec 2008, 7:38 pm

NeantHumain wrote:

Anyway it seems that most religions condone murder under various conditions—for example, if the murdered is a heretic or a member of a rival sect. So to you religionists, why is murder not wrong? Bonus points if you can answer without falling back on tautologies or quotes from the Bible.

Um... so you want a religious justification for why murder is wrong, without falling back on religious texts? :roll:

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slowmutant
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31 Dec 2008, 10:16 am

anna-banana wrote:

^^yes, that's what common sense says. unfortunately the Catholic church lacks it in that respect :p

I never said the Catholic Church is infallible or perfect. I did not even suggest that. There a few things which I as a Catholic disagree with. Homosexual = Evil, for instance. But there's still a lot I can get behind, more than enough.

ruveyn
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31 Jan 2009, 7:41 am

slowmutant wrote:

It's an idiotic question.

Actually it is a good question. How is it that the religions which characterize murder as a most very serious sin manage to promote homicide on a large scale. Discount instances of genuine self-defense.

How did followers of the Prince of Peace manage to organize the Crusades? How did worshipers of Jesus Christ manage to promote the Holy Inquisition with its numerous occurences of torture and death? How did Orthodox rabbis associated with the Gush Emunim manage to sanction the assassination of Itzak Rabin? How do Muslims who consider murder wrong mange to commit so many suicide bombings?

Fair questions all.

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b9
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31 Jan 2009, 7:52 am

to take upon ones mortal self, the responsibility of choosing whether a life should be, is insanity.

"murder" is removing a life for some personal gain.
to murder someone is surely a condemnation of your soul. i do not know what "souls" are as others do, but i think a soul is the power that comes from a universal acceptability and acceptance of your consciousness.
to kill what you could never dream to recreate is ignorance in the extreme.

killing things to ward them off in a security sense is different as it is survival at stake.
but a safe person who takes the life of someone who is not directly threatening them is a condemnable entity in my impression.

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31 Jan 2009, 10:25 am

Quote:

How did followers of the Prince of Peace manage to organize the Crusades?

The greed, hubris, and murderous nature of man.

Chibi_Neko
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31 Jan 2009, 12:15 pm

slowmutant wrote:

I never said the Catholic Church is infallible or perfect.

But god is supposed to be. Why is it that religionists like christians say that murder is bad when their holy text premotes it? If god is infallible, you cannot just pick and choose which rules to follow just because you like or dislike them.... they are god's rules.

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slowmutant
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31 Jan 2009, 12:23 pm

Chibi_Neko wrote:

slowmutant wrote:

I never said the Catholic Church is infallible or perfect.

God is perfect. Man is not. And I refuse to believe in any God whose express command is to kill. And even God gave me such a command, I would not obey.

Chibi_Neko
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31 Jan 2009, 12:43 pm

slowmutant wrote:

God is perfect. Man is not. And I refuse to believe in any God whose express command is to kill. And even God gave me such a command, I would not obey.

Wait a minute... back up...
You say god is perfect, yet you don't believe in him.
The god of Abhraham, Issac, and Jacob.... the one that jews, christians and muslims worship gave many commands to kill, and himself killed.

What are you trying to say slowmutant? Don't you believe in god or not? Saying yes means accepting all the things god did and rules he layed out.

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slowmutant
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31 Jan 2009, 2:50 pm

Chibi_Neko wrote:

slowmutant wrote:

God is perfect. Man is not. And I refuse to believe in any God whose express command is to kill. And even God gave me such a command, I would not obey.

I am Christian. Have I not made that clear?

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31 Jan 2009, 3:24 pm

[youtube]http://youtube.com/watch?v=8pD3Ao__qjc[/youtube]

greenblue
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31 Jan 2009, 4:27 pm

slowmutant wrote:

Chibi_Neko wrote:

slowmutant wrote:

God is perfect. Man is not. And I refuse to believe in any God whose express command is to kill. And even God gave me such a command, I would not obey.

I am Christian. Have I not made that clear?

God is perfect
Man is imperfect
if God commands to kill, the command must be perfect because God is perfect
Man is imperfect, therefore, refusing to obey a command that is perfect, results in an imperfect choice.

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Chibi_Neko
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31 Jan 2009, 6:16 pm

greenblue wrote:

[*]God is perfect
[*]Man is imperfect
[*]if God commands to kill, the command must be perfect because God is perfect
[*]Man is imperfect, therefore, refusing to obey a command that is perfect, results in an imperfect choice.
[/list]

Now THAT is the kind of answer I was looking for.

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slowmutant
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01 Feb 2009, 4:56 am

Hmmmm ...

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