Thoughts on Gaza War

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Religion, philosophy or something like it is a persistent human meme. There will never be peace as long as humans are as they are. We will have to develop something like mental telepathy whereby we can feel the pain of others as vividly as we can feel our own pain. Then (and only then) the violence will stop.

There has always been war. There always will be war. It is in our nature.

ruven

There's no evolutionary advantage in developing metal telepathy and shared pain. Therefore, I doubt that we will evolve to such beings.

Well done for addressing all the points I raised in argument WITH SOMEONE ELSE. Most of those comments were responding to Khan Sama, not you, Lepetitprince. Try re-reading it a bit, and it will no doubt make greater sense.

Did I deny that Palestine has been bombed? NO I DID NOT. Nor did I say "the israelis are really nice etc etc." I drew a comparison between the claims that the IDF is an uncontrolled slaughter-machine, and the deliberate and admitted goals of Hamas to slaughter random people, based on a news report for a major media outlet. The film was biased in its own right FOR Palestine and Hamas, and so obviously a propaganda tool that Goebbels would spin in his grave, yet the filmed content was inherently suspicious. It makes me doubt that the IDF are the evil baby-killers everyone sells them to be, because the pro-hamas material is so obviously being screwed with. You wonder why the west supports Israel? Maybe its because of reports like this...

And for the umpteenth time, I have no wish nor desire to argue the pros and cons of British colonial rule, and have as yet made zero attempt to sell them as anything at all, good or bad. I have not argued for or against their case in any way, so these repeated claims that I am somehow failing to accept what "my ancestors" have done or whatever the hell the latest unfounded claim is are utter BS. When I desire to argue the case, I will, and it will be clear that I am doing so, but I am NOT NOW, mostly because this thread is about Israel and Palestine, not the history of British Colonialism. I'm not sure what posts you people are reading, because they certainly are not mine.

The original Palestinians were killed off by the Syrians in 700 BC so the current inhabitants of Gaza are Jordanians and Syrians. Israel was created from part of the dismantled Ottoman Empire at the end of WW2 as a term of surrender so it has a valid right to exist.

Since the Hamas government insists on relentlessly attacking Israel from Gaza, Israelis have no choice but to defend their country. One viable exit strategy is for all of the Jewish people to surrender and leave Israel. This is not realistic because Israel appears to be militarily superior and within its rights of self defense.

Another solution is for Israel to invade Gaza, and physically deport all of the Jordanians and Syrians who do not renounce Islam. Destruction of the Hamas government, and the religious entities behind the attacks, is a viable exit strategy for this war.

The land of Gaza would end up as spoils of war for Israel. The Israelis have offered Gaza to Egypt many times, but Egypt does not want the people who live there. Maybe Egypt will want Gaza after it is mostly empty of people, or Israel could simply keep it.

By your definition of inhabitant, none of us "Americans" are really from America since we haven't been here more than 2,800 years or so.

Did you ever think that maybe the people who lived there in the past 50-70 years or so might be pretty pissed that their land was taken from them, regardless of how long their ancestors had been there? Don't you think you'd be pretty pissed if someone took the house and land your family owned since you hadn't been there more than 2,800 years?

Did any of you see tonight's interview with Mosab Yousef? Very interesting perspective, especially from the son of Hamas's founder.

Yep, 1920.

The sad thing though, accountability really falls with the deal brokers who did a terrible job of informing both parties what the situation was. I think if, after a war, some new country was set up in Europe and two different groups of people were made to think that they had equal rights to the land - I think this is the kind of situation that could have many groups of people out there trying to kill each other. Throw in a sense of age-old religious supremacism and whamm! Spectacular mess.

Yes, The Tribal Native Americans are not happy about having their land taken. Current Americans are enjoying the spoils of war, but the Indians are not violent about it.
This not change the fact that the British Mandate created Israel. That Palestine was called Trans Jordan before the breakup of the Ottoman Empire. Or that the Jordanians and Syrians that did not fight against Israels right to exist in 1947 did not lose their homes and property and are Israeli citizens.

There is a great deal of hypocrisy thrown about using the "duration of tenure" method.

Random example: There are fully fledged citizens of the UK who claim and demand all the rights of a native of the islands, though they be second or third generation only, and from as far afield as Asia or the Zambezi river. Adversely, there are Dutch families who arrived at Cape Colony in the 1650s who will always be viewed as foreign, and not African, though they hold tenure stretching for hundreds of years. Which is right? Which is wrong? How long is long enough? Or is the concept itself - in a world of such a transitory nature - completely flawed?

During studying "The Troubles" and "The Irish Question", I often ran up against the same basic issue, which was never to my mind truly settled to any degree of satisfaction. At a fundamental level, putting aside such matters as "who was here first" and "my god is better than yours" .. is there so very much difference between the two governments at war that the citizens of one would suffer under the rule of the other? Is the Republic of Ireland run by a cruel dictatorship of madmen? Is the UK? Could I live under either government in a reasonably safe and comfortable fashion? Would I still grumble about taxes, and find that my weekly pay never quite meets my needs? Would my day to day life change drastically for the worse?

Apply this to Israel and Palestine.. put aside tit for tat BS or who got there first or whether they should be there.. what is there about Israeli government that so displeases those of Palestine? Do they tax higher? Longer work hours? On a day to day living basis.. whats the beef?

^The Irish side of my family left Ireland after persecutions from the English. England was in the wrong by trying to take over Ireland. I don't see anything to debate about that. They were the cause of the conflict.

Israel is in the wrong by taking land and forcing Palestinan people to live in refugee camps.

Look at the facts

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugees

If Israel let's the refugees return back to their homes the extreme element will be go.

If jesus does come back like what christians think. I wonder what he would think about all refugees camps.

Thread is tl;dr so I'm just responding solely to the basic opening question. If you think I'm referring specifically to anything you've written, I'm not, so don't chew me out over it.

I nearly choked the other day when I heard an Isreali government official say they were "fighting for peace and security". When has that ever worked for them in the past? No, all they're doing is putting their own citizens in harm's way as much as they are civilians in Gaza for what is essentially a direct vendetta between the Israeli government and Hamas. Given the opportunity the citizens on both sides could easily make a peaceful two-state solution work (this is true of civilians in the vast majority of conflicts. Hermann Goering reiterated this point in the Nuremberg Diary and it bears repeating over and over), but instead we're stuck with this petty religious fundamentalist hatred that is an arms dealer's wet dream and 200 years from now we still won't have a shred of progress.

With whom do your symopathies lie? Are you more inclined to see the Palestianian or Israeli side of things?

Or do with sympathize with no one?

Who is "right" or "wrong" is not the point. I speak of the day to day running of a nation. Is there enough difference between the way the UK is run, and the way the Republic is run that living under one or the other would be so very intolerable? Likewise with Palestine. I'm talking about the governance that happens all the time.. the things we pay for with taxes, that happen over and over. The things we barely even notice most of the time, except in the vaguest of ways. Is there enough of a difference to kill for? If we remove these vague notions of religious BS, and national pride or racial division, do Palestinians pay more for their utilities than Israelis? Do the Irish get cheaper council tax? (Or equivalent.) I'm talking about the things that are actually important. Cost of living.. the next meal on the table.. job prospects.

Indeed.

Quite right. Devout commitment to al Islam renders one quite insane. I might point out that Midinath Yisroel (State of Israel) is legally constituted as a secular state and the Orthodox are a minority in the Knesset.

If we were to eliminate religion in government in the U.S. only atheists would be permitted to hold office. I am rather favorably disposed toward that. I cannot object to private religious commitments since I do not favor mind control. But I would like to see anyone with a religious hair up their arse not hold any office of power or trust. Religion begins at home and that is where it should stay.

ruveyn

If you don't want to talk about who is right and wrong and talk about living standards, a refugee you have nothing, you are stuck you cannot go anywhere until some other country accepts you.
Palestinian refugees have nothing, very little prospects of any sort, that injustice is the perfect breeding ground for terrorism.

Also take a look at the effect of Israeli settlements.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement




http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/settlements.html