Page 3 of 3 [ 36 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3


does coincidence exist?
no 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
no 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
don't know / don't care / other 14%  14%  [ 3 ]
don't know / don't care / other 14%  14%  [ 3 ]
yes (because we will never have enough information) 18%  18%  [ 4 ]
yes (because we will never have enough information) 18%  18%  [ 4 ]
yes (but it is not related to the information we have) 18%  18%  [ 4 ]
yes (but it is not related to the information we have) 18%  18%  [ 4 ]
Total votes : 22

toddjh
Toucan
Toucan

User avatar

Joined: 8 Nov 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: 277
Location: Champaign, IL, USA

14 Dec 2005, 12:55 am

anarkhos wrote:
As for your jibe about the existences of coincidences being demanded by QM, again, QM was derived to deal with this phenomena! It's like saying Newton's law of gravitation demands the existence of gravity.


I think I may have pinpointed part of the source of our disagreement. My definition of coincidence was that they were events which could not be predicted, even in principle. I realize now that the language there isn't really adequate, so I'll rephrase: a coincidence is an event for which the possibility of predictability has been completely ruled out.

Under pre-Bell QM, this was not the case: events couldn't be predicted, but there was some hope that they might be someday. Post-Bell, the existence of coincidences was indeed shown to be a requirement of QM.

Quote:
Neither QM nor Bell's theorem suggest it is impossible to predict the instrument's spin measurement.


Bell's Theorem does indeed suggest it is impossible to predict the instrument's spin measurement at least some of the time, and at least in the real world (where there is no access to nonlocal hidden variables).

Jeremy



omega
Pileated woodpecker
Pileated woodpecker

User avatar

Joined: 11 Dec 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: 191

14 Dec 2005, 5:43 am

toddjh wrote:
the days of a well-tested scientific model being completely abandoned more or less went out with the renaissance.
I doubt if is that is true, and I think people always have thought that way in the past, no matter how wrong their assumptions were. But sience as we know it, has not existed long enough to be at stage already I think. But that just my opinion about it of course.

But I do find it very interesting what you both have to say about this toddjh and anarkhos! I do not know enough about the subject (yet) to add much to this, but I really like reading your ideas about it :)



worsedale
Sea Gull
Sea Gull

User avatar

Joined: 29 Oct 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: 210

15 Dec 2005, 8:43 am

I agree with the person on here who remarked 'we don't know reality'.
You have to disassociate the science, however complex it is, from the social fields and contexts which gives it an audience.
There may be infinitely complex quantum mechanical models to show that events can be almost unfathomably unlikely. In science everything we discover is interpreted in terms of different frameworks. Like if I walked through a wall (QM probability 1 in 1 billion) the phenomena would be rationalised as an improbable combiniton of paths of subatomic particles.
In REALITY, my materialising through a wall could have been the result of a highly powerful force which acts when a static object is about to be struck by a human being. We don't know what we will discover, but a postulation like that would only be made in the field of (wall human penetrations) :idea: OR SOMETHING
The fraework of QM has its place at a particular time in history. It is completely attached to society in general, it assumes its own culture, to the extent that the most rational scientists will make observations and scientific judgements according to social pressures, to impress others, to perpetuate lies, to keep the social engine going which situates them in a comfortable standard of living, all because they are the doyens of a particular fad which has gripped the public.
So don't think only in scientific terms here
And DON'T spend ayons of web space dismembering my post if it is slightly scientific inaccurate......



Mithrandir
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Oct 2004
Age: 39
Gender: Male
Posts: 614
Location: Victoria, BC Canada

15 Dec 2005, 2:37 pm

Religion must embrace knowledge.


_________________
Music is the language of the world.
Math is the language of the universe.