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Agreed of course. But A) no reason to make it easy on a hate monger, and B) freedom of speech doesnt not trump freedom of travel. As is often said, you are free to say whatever you want. You are not assured of an audience.

In that regard, we are really speaking of the right to assembly. This right, or lack of it, trumps direct freedom of speech. You have that in the states, with court ordered protest distance limits and restraining orders right?

I mean, if you had a KKKer with the right of free speech, he could march into city hall and make a nuisance of himself. He would very fast find himself in restraint; by jail or court order. So it is with WB church. Its just that the effective restraining order would be as large as a continent.

Are you opposed to restraining orders or not?

So I think you kid yourself about that concept of total (and reasonable) freedom of speech. Its not all pervasive as you wish. Many things abrogate it even in the land of the free and the home of the brave.

Well, from your prior comments I'm guessing you've experienced the typical school bullying. If you're able to see that first-hand and still think that you can just say "Hey teachers, make sure this stops" and it will all be better, well, I just don't know what to say to you. Teachers are not even aware, much of the time, who is getting bullied by whom. Those who are aware are not willing to take a stand against it. Those who are willing to defend the bullied are not capable of doing so. And do you think you could go to school administration for a resolution to such problems?

Who are you giving the history lesson to? This is why I consider the Russian revolution to be a mistake, It led to Stalinism. Socialism must happen on a global scale.

I will agree that policies on bullying are harder to enforce and more likely not to be enforced. I can only speak from my own expeirence with the schools my own children have attended, but violence is certainly a no-go.

Who's making it easy on them? I'll join you in heckling them, and booing them out of the place.


Of course. If you don't want to listen to what they have to say... don't. It's that simple. But don't make the decision for me or for anyone else.


Freedom of assembly is essential to free speech. The main thing I can think of is WBC picketing funerals- those are private ceremonies, and the mourning can exclude people who they don't want around. Restraining orders are usually issued in the cases of repeated harassment, not merely because someone expressed an unpopular viewpoint.


If he is making an obstruction to city business, then yes, he can be removed.


You're pushing restraining orders beyond their extreme.


It's a separate issue. Restraining orders are usually issued against potentially dangerous stalkers.


My main concern is political speech. There are no views which can not be legally expressed in the United States. There are no books that are banned. Harassing people sometimes elicits a negative response. Making a public nuisance of oneself can also elicit negative reactions. But you still always have the right to peaceable assembly. There was a debate in my area a while ago when some Neo-Nazis wanted to have a march through a ghetto neighborhood called Over-the-Rhine. (If you don't know about Cincinnati, Over-the-Rhine is where you're most likely to get shanked) The only issue that came up was that they weren't going to be provided with police escorts on their march. But if they were to rent out some area to hold a rally, they would certainly be permitted to so long as they didn't start any fights.

You will never completely prevent bullying, but saying this I do not think that schools are doing the best they can either. I think teachers need to be trained in a different way. One method would be to have them trained as apprentices. Two of my partners kids are now teachers, when they were at Uni they earnt money as Teachers Aides. This has given them an invaluable insight into what goes on from the perspective of the students, it has also made them acutely aware of the various machinations going on in the class.

I agree that the current way education works will not reduce bullying to any great extent. In fact many of the teachers instigate the bullying because they simply refuse to learn and understand the nature of bullying, maybe we should have better entry criteria to the teaching profession.

As things stand I agree with your bleak assessment of schools, what I do not agree with is the lack of ability to change

I say zero tolerance for bullies and a harder punishment, stoned to death, no matter how old they are and no matter the excuse and no matter what their parents say, ok I am being biased, but it would be fun though

Last edited by greenblue on 20 Feb 2009, 11:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Orwell, why do you think violent pictures should be censored?

I presume from this your bullying was more cerebral? I can understand how hurtful mind f*****g can be but dont be too hasty to think that physical bullying is less severe, try having 40 people chase you home and several of them beat the crap out of you on a neighbours porch.

Even the teachers who would be willing to prevent bullying would be powerless to do so. Middle-schoolers can be astonishingly subtle when they need to be, the type of ongoing psychological torture that is used isn't even something that can really be described or reported.


The only thing I can think of to actually end bullying is to beat the living crap out of the bullies, and to have teachers look the other way when kids who get bullied do so. But that wasn't an option for a small, scrawny kid like me.

When did I ever say they should be?

40 people? That sounds like a lynch mob.

At least if you get beat up, you have what is seen as a legitimate reason to respond, and you might even be able to get others on your side. And a punch in the eye hurts for a few minutes, but not for much longer than that. Psychological torture can be hidden well enough that if you retaliate, it looks like you are the one starting it, and it hurts longer than a few bruises.

This is the difference in our experiences I just got the s**t kicked out of me, and any piss taking (i had a pretty wild stutter) was out in the open, mind you there were still teachers who thought it was funny to get me to read aloud in class.


Yeah I actually won a fight with a bully, the word got out and I was chased home the kid I beat was helped out by several others. I was absolutely s**t scared, banging on a door for help and the occupants did not even call the cops[/quote]

Insidious psychological bullying is very hard to control, in fact it is these kids that snap and turn up at schools with weapons, and unfortunately the teachers don't look the other way. I can feel your pain, at least I got the occasional punch in. Do you really believe there is nothing that can reduce this kind of bullying?

Last edited by DentArthurDent on 20 Feb 2009, 11:44 pm, edited 3 times in total.

You said it here. Explain?

I didn't say pictures of violence. I said violence. As in, if you are violent towards someone, that is a problem. I already explained this to Claire.

Was it really so ambiguous?

I sense some chemistry between Orwell and DentBentArthur (can we call you DBA or something shorter?).

I find it quite sexy.

Pretend I'm not here now. Go on...it's allright...talk about your feelings. Oh yeah!

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OG_6CopW9GQ&feature=related[/youtube]