America Finito?

Page 3 of 7 [ 103 posts ] Go to page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 Next

Previous topic | Next topic

Haliphron
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Age: 44
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,980

12 Mar 2009, 6:13 pm

ascan wrote:

Orwell wrote:

....Where is today's polarization? Where is the divide...

Haves, and have nots, Orwell. I'd assume some of that will correlate with ethnicity, and location within the US. It amazes me how blind some of you Americans are to the mess you're in, but I still think the prediction given a little too pessimistic.

The US is one of many countries in this world where there is a substantial gap between the haves and the have-nots.
Its incredibly simplistic and historically ignorant to think that such extreme disparity can somehow be permanently eliminated through socialism and the welfare state. If America actually falls, EUROPE WILL FALL WITH HER! Western Civilization, including Europe, is in sharp decline in case you havent noticed. Futhermore, Europeans have a serious problem which they have YET to resolve: They've STOPPED breeding! As native Europeans become fewer in number, non-european immigrants are pouring in and are going to make europeans a minority in their own land before long!

ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 89
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

12 Mar 2009, 6:44 pm

ascan wrote:

Orwell wrote:

....Where is today's polarization? Where is the divide...

Not a sufficient explanation for turmoil and civil war. There have always been haves and have-nots. Such was Europe under feudalism, and there was no civil war. No uprising of the oppressed peasants. It was the middle class that remade Europe. And they were the haves, not the have-nots.

ruveyn

ascan
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Age: 56
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,194
Location: Taunton/Aberdeen

13 Mar 2009, 3:55 am

Haliphron wrote:

ascan wrote:

Orwell wrote:

....Where is today's polarization? Where is the divide...

All well and good, and I don't disagree, but you're going off on a tangent because you think I'm some limp-wristed pinko liberal. My statement answers Orwell's question. The argument is over how serious that polarisation is.

Orwell
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 8 Aug 2007
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,518
Location: Room 101

13 Mar 2009, 4:06 am

ascan wrote:

Orwell wrote:

....Where is today's polarization? Where is the divide...

You plainly know very little about America. There is not so much class consciousness as you imagine (Marxism being rather out of fashion). The "have nots" are not about to unify to fight against the "haves." No, not enough correlation with ethnicity and location to really be important. There is simply not going to be an uprising of the poor against the rich. There is going to be some whining and grumbling about a handful of corrupt businessmen, but that's about it.

Yes, we are in a bit of a mess at the moment, and I think we all see that. I'm not "blind" to the mess we're in, I'm just keeping it in a proper perspective. We have faced plenty worse in the past, and any problems we have now pale in comparison to what other societies have historically survived. A recession is not going to topple the United States. It certainly isn't going to lead to civil war. At the most, you might predict a lessening of US predominance in world affairs, but to go beyond that is just stupid.

_________________
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

ascan
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Age: 56
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,194
Location: Taunton/Aberdeen

13 Mar 2009, 4:11 am

ruveyn wrote:

Not a sufficient explanation for turmoil and civil war.

When placed in the context of where your country, and the rest of the western world, is going economically it becomes a possibility, although a very remote one. I wonder what would happen if your government let all those second-rate car manufacturers of yours go bust. Lots of unemployed people concentrated geographically, and armed to boot. No civil war, but still not a nice thought. Of course, they could let AIG, Citigroup etc go under, watch the world economy collapse, then sit back and watch the s**t hit the fan. With that scenario, anything's possible.

ascan
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Age: 56
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,194
Location: Taunton/Aberdeen

13 Mar 2009, 4:19 am

Orwell wrote:

Your country's unemployment is heading for 10%. That's a lot of "have nots", Orwell. It's got nothing to do with Marxism, just common sense. I expect your current parentally-financed liberal education insulates you from such woes for the time being. Enjoy that while you can.

Orwell
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 8 Aug 2007
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,518
Location: Room 101

13 Mar 2009, 6:24 am

ascan wrote:

We've had high unemployment before, and while these are tough times there have, as I've said, been worse. I know people who are out of work and, while they aren't thrilled about the current situation, they are pressing onward and looking for new jobs. They know that times are tough, and they're dealing with it. They certainly are not about to rise up in rebellion.

And as an aside, I am covering virtually all of the costs of my university education myself through a combination of merit scholarships, student loans, and part-time work. The parental contribution to my education amounts only to the cost of food. I take care of tuition, housing, and books. Further, most would not refer to a degree that focuses primarily on math and science as a "liberal education." Much as you'd like to stereotype me as the spoiled college kid, that is not the case.

_________________
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 89
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

13 Mar 2009, 7:59 am

ascan wrote:

Orwell wrote:

The U.S. had 25 percent unemployment during the Depression and hardly any "safety nets". If the country did not have either a communist or fascist revolution then, it will not have one now.

ruveyn

Henriksson
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 23 Nov 2008
Age: 34
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,534
Location: Sweden

13 Mar 2009, 8:03 am

ruveyn wrote:

ascan wrote:

Orwell wrote:

The U.S. had 25 percent unemployment during the Depression and hardly any "safety nets". If the country did not have either a communist or fascist revolution then, it will not have one now.

ruveyn

If Roosevelt didn't save America with his New Deal, that might well have have happened. I'm happy it never happened, a communist or fascist America would be a frightening thought indeed.

_________________
"Purity is for drinking water, not people" - Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Anubis
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 6 Sep 2006
Age: 137
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,911
Location: Mount Herculaneum/England

13 Mar 2009, 8:05 am

Quote:

He based the forecast on classified data supplied to him by FAPSI analysts, he says. He predicts that economic, financial and demographic trends will provoke a political and social crisis in the U.S. When the going gets tough, he says, wealthier states will withhold funds from the federal government and effectively secede from the union. Social unrest up to and including a civil war will follow. The U.S. will then split along ethnic lines, and foreign powers will move in.

California will form the nucleus of what he calls "The Californian Republic," and will be part of China or under Chinese influence. Texas will be the heart of "The Texas Republic," a cluster of states that will go to Mexico or fall under Mexican influence. Washington, D.C., and New York will be part of an "Atlantic America" that may join the European Union. Canada will grab a group of Northern states Prof. Panarin calls "The Central North American Republic." Hawaii, he suggests, will be a protectorate of Japan or China, and Alaska will be subsumed into Russia.

"It would be reasonable for Russia to lay claim to Alaska; it was part of the Russian Empire for a long time." A framed satellite image of the Bering Strait that separates Alaska from Russia like a thread hangs from his office wall. "It's not there for no reason," he says with a sly grin.

His claims might be intellectually... masturbatory, and I'd say it would be hard for states to seriously break away, such as those which have claimed "secession", but let's not rule out the possibility. Although US nationalism is strong, there are still those who are not so fond of the giant federation. It's possible that a few states might secede in the event of the crises mentioned, such as former confederate states and those with large populations or which feel alienated to US culture. Also, there might be problems if Obama or a later president starts to ignore the line between federal and state government, or the "principles" practised by past US governments. In that case, a separate confederation might emerge, and states such as California might want to break away and become nations. If such a disagreement and split were to emerge, it would weaken the USA, and nations such as Russia, Mexico, and Canada would have a stake in US territory.

So, it's an interesting turn of events, but quite bizarre. Of course it wouldn't destroy the US completely, but it would lose territory.

_________________
Lalalalai.... I'll cut you up!

ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 89
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

13 Mar 2009, 8:12 am

Henriksson wrote:

If Roosevelt didn't save America with his New Deal, that might well have have happened. I'm happy it never happened, a communist or fascist America would be a frightening thought indeed.

The New Deal was a failure. Unemployment in 1937 was as high as it was in 1933. Hitler saved America. Gearing up for war brought an end to the Depression. What FDR did do, was to give the impression that we could handle our situation. He calmed nerves. Americans stayed sufficiently calm to ward off the danger of revolution. Basically Americans got a grip on themselves.

ruveyn

Fuzzy
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Age: 53
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,223
Location: Alberta Canada

13 Mar 2009, 9:02 am

I'm siding with the Americans on this one. A class revolt seems unlikely.

Even the 100 year old text of my book "the Czar's Germans" calls America "the paradise of the poor".

_________________
davidred wrote...
I installed Ubuntu once and it completely destroyed my paying relationship with Microsoft.

twoshots
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,731
Location: Boötes void

13 Mar 2009, 11:33 am

ruveyn wrote:

ascan wrote:

Orwell wrote:

The U.S. had 25 percent unemployment during the Depression and hardly any "safety nets". If the country did not have either a communist or fascist revolution then, it will not have one now.

ruveyn

1) 10% is hardly unheard of in the Western World. Spain is headed for 20%, and unlike Americans, Europeans riot when the wind blows the wrong direction
2) It should be noted that the workforce was entirely different during the depression, as households were almost entirely single income, so that 25% was a little more like 50%.

Again, anyone expecting a peasant revolt knows little about what it's like on the ground here. It's difficult enough to get Americans off their asses to do anything, let alone rebel.

_________________
* here for the nachos.

Fuzzy
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Age: 53
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,223
Location: Alberta Canada

13 Mar 2009, 11:45 am

In the sixties, in America, a woman, Kitty Genovese, was killed in in the courtyard of her apartment building. Plenty of people heard her screams and yet did nothing. People who knew her.

Its recounted in just about every North American Psychology book. Here is an online accounting of it.

http://www.landman-psychology.com/214/k ... novese.htm

And you think Americans are going to riot and rebel over someone being out of work? Ha.

_________________
davidred wrote...
I installed Ubuntu once and it completely destroyed my paying relationship with Microsoft.

Haliphron
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Age: 44
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,980

13 Mar 2009, 12:36 pm

ruveyn wrote:

Henriksson wrote:

If Roosevelt didn't save America with his New Deal, that might well have have happened. I'm happy it never happened, a communist or fascist America would be a frightening thought indeed.

So you're convinced that that is Nothing that a federal government can do to salvage a tanking economy?
Should we let the banks fail to??.............. :roll:

phil777
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 20 May 2008
Age: 39
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,825
Location: Montreal, Québec

13 Mar 2009, 4:46 pm

"Gearing up for war brought an end to the Depression."

As per the militaro-industrial complex (which reached militaro-politico-industrial status with Bush ;p ).

Page 3 of 7 [ 103 posts ] Go to page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 Next

Jump to:

America Finito? Post Reply New Topic

America Finito?