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Fnord
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16 Mar 2009, 7:33 pm

Henriksson wrote:
Magnus wrote:
I don't have to prove anything to you.

And we don't have to take your words seriously either.

Agreed. With no proof to back up a claim, there is no need to consider the claim.

LostInEmulation wrote:
He can have had the best intentions of all, but he himself could have been confused. He might have been the most sincere and honest person on this planet but that does not mean that his trance-visions have anything to do with reality.

That's pretty much the definition of a delusionary belief. However, sincerity of belief is not sufficent for proof, and is therefore irrelevant.

Magnus wrote:
I don't have to prove anything to you. Why don't you just do the research yourself.

Again? I've already done it once, and arrived at the conclusion that Cayce was either deluded in his belief of himself, or he knew he was scamming everyone else.

Magnus wrote:
Fnord, you are full of it because I know you haven't read the real archives. If you had done so, you would know that they have had sufficient follow-ups.

I've read them, and while there may be an abundance of follow-ups, the only ones that provide hard evidence are the ones that debunk Mr. Cayce's claims and practices.

Magnus wrote:
I don't really care what anyone believes so it's not in my corner to educate anyone or prove anything. However, I do care when someone is being unjustly called a liar. He lived a decent and noble life and doesn't deserve to be painted in such a wrong light. He was a very simple man and very average in intelligence. However, when he went under a trance, he could see into people's bodies. He knew their ailments and it was very specific. He did this without even looking at the person. Very often he only knew the name and location of the "patient".

Evidence, Please? Everthing I've read that did not rely solely on rumor, hearsay, testimonials, and word-of-mouth staements of faith by his followers indicated that Mr. Cayce's claims were either so vague as to be open to any interpretation, or they were simply wrong.

Magnus wrote:
What would make me think Cayce's a fraud?

1. He claimed that psychic abilities are real, when there is no substantiated evidence to support his claims.

2. He claimed that he had psychic abilities, when there is no substantiated evidence to support his claims.

3. He claimed to be able to heal people with his alleged psychic abilities, when there is no substantiated evidence to support his claims.

If he were to have made any of his assertions in a neutral court, his claims would have been thrown out due to lack of evidence.

There is no substantiated evidence to support any claims of psychic ability, of which Edgar Cayce is only one of a myriad of deluded or fraudulent claimants.

Magnus wrote:
I don't know.

That's obvious.

Magnus wrote:
I've already been skeptical and my interest was piqued a long time ago. So, I've done a sufficient amount of research into his life and the lives of his "patients". I guess I already made up my mind. But at least I sincerely put in the time and effort of educating myself and playing devil's advocate in search of the truth.

As have I. However, in my case, I started my research believing that I'd found the Real Deal. It was only after tracking down innumerable claims over a decade of research, that I came to the conclusion that the only reality is what can be measured and proven. Everything else is delusion, fantasy, and lies. Mr. Cayce falls into the latter category.

As a sidenote, this is the same situation that I found myself in after attending Seminary and actually reading the Bible, studying its contents, and researching its claims and history.

Magnus wrote:
It's fascinating how he operated from a trance state. If he was a fraud he would have allowed his friends and family to create a new religion in his name.

Instead, his followers have gone ahead and done so. Besides, there is no record of any investigation of what you call a "trance state" - no electroencephalographs, no MRI's, and no "Alpha-Beta-Theta" detectors were employed.

No doubt, someday one of his followers will "miraculously" uncover such "evidence," which he or she will not allow to be critically examined, and millions of Cayce's followers the world over will embrace this new "evidence" as proof of their claims.

Magnus wrote:
However, he was very much against being seen as a prophet. He was averse to accepting any glory. He didn't live a lavish lifestyle, although he very well could have. His patients had no reason to lie. All of this makes him seem sincere and legit.

The key words are "seems to."

Magnus wrote:
Nothing he said ever seemed to be hurtful.

Again, "seemed to" is open to subjective interpretation. I call telling someone to forego medical treatments that could save their lives pretty hurtful.

Magnus wrote:
He was a very moral man and what he spoke about was all good. So, if you ask me what would make me think he was a fraud now, I'd have to say that if all those people suddenly became ill and blamed it all on Cayce, I'd second guess everything again.

Again, a moral man would not suggest that people forego medical treatment that could save their lives. And, given that Mr. Cayce has been dead for 64 years, it is safe to assume that the vast majority of his contemporaries are also dead. Most of the ones I looked into were dead (about 20 years ago), and most of those died within a few years of receiving Mr. Cayce's "miraculous" treatments.

Edgar Cayce was either a deluded fool or a deliberate liar.


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Magnus
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16 Mar 2009, 8:28 pm

fnord wrote:

Quote:
3. He claimed to be able to heal people with his alleged psychic abilities, when there is no substantiated evidence to support his claims.


He never claimed anything of the sort. The people who were cured (some after being told by doctors that their disease was fatal) were the ones who reported that he helped them.
Yet, after the 10 years of research that fnord claimed to have done has somehow managed to forget these facts. I think you are the liar fnord. I don't believe you even read the actual archives. It's so typical of a cherry picking skeptic to believe what he wants and sees only what he wants to see. Ignore the evidence if it doesn't go along with your world view? Typical...


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16 Mar 2009, 8:48 pm

Here is one example of a reading by Cayce.

Quote:
THE EDGAR CAYCE PERSPECTIVE OF AUTISM

Edgar Cayce gave several readings for individuals exhibiting autistic features. Because Edgar Cayce was more interested in the uniqueness of each individual than in diagnostic labels, we cannot be certain as to whether these cases are representative of autism. The word autism was never used in any reading or correspondence. However, descriptions of behaviors and functioning do suggest that certain persons who received readings may have suffered from autism.

Notably, three readings given for an eight-year-old girl (2253), are indicative of autism.

(Q) Why does she not talk?
(A) This reaction, or refractory reaction in system, prevents the contraction in the muscular forces that have to do with the plexus from the secondary cardiac to the central nerve system. This is directly to the vocal box. In the corrections in the 3rd and 4th dorsal, and the 2nd and 3rd cervical, this will be stimulated, see? as will necessary later to stimulate along the eustachian tube for the reaction there, see? This NOT in the beginning. The manipulations we would make at least three times each week, and ONE of the treatments and ADJUSTMENT treatment - the other the drainages set up and the muscular forces and tendons so relaxed as to make for the feeding out or building up of nerve impulses as between the sympathetic and cerebro-spinal system.
(Q) Why does she wring her hands?
(A) Nervous reaction. When these come, there is some form of expression - and in the attempt to find an outlet for that INNATELY felt, the lack of knowing WHAT to do - see?
(Q) Will she ever be able to understand and carry out a spoken suggestion?
(A) She will, if these [treatments] are carried out as has been outlined.
(Q) Where will the first improvement be noticed?
(A) The gradual relaxation, and NOT so nervous.
(Q) Is her brain alright, or just dormant?
(A) Just dormant. (2253-1)

Edgar Cayce traced the cause of the condition to pressures along the spine where nerve plexus coordinate the functioning of the system. Nervous system incoordination resulted producing a disturbance to the "imaginative nerve forces of the body" causing the child to be "over sensitive."

The pressures, as we find, exist principally in those of the sacral, the lower dorsal, and the WHOLE of the cervical areas. These are especially seen in the 4th LUMBAR plexus, that prevents coordination in the sympathetic and cerebro-spinal impulses; while those of the central or lower dorsal, sympathetically with the upper or 4th and 5th dorsal, prevent those impulses to the central nerve force as to cause any reaction in this direction, and little or no response is seen in that of a refractory reaction, save as comes through impulses in the imaginative nerve forces of the body. Hence those tendencies of the body to be over sensitive to certain vibrations that may be set up, without the proper coordinating even to BRAIN impulses as to WHAT the reaction SHOULD be. Hence often the body responds in a manner as apparently directly opposite from that as would be, or should be, expected from voluntary or involuntary refractory, or refraction. (2253-1)

Osteopathic manipulations to relieve the pressure were recommended. A mild, natural herbal formula (containing mayblossom and ginseng) was suggested to calm and sedate the child. An energy medicine device (Radial Appliance) was prescribed to assist in coordinating the system.

Hypnotic suggestion was consistently recommended in such cases. Edgar Cayce sometimes used the expression "suggestive therapeutics" to describe a simple, natural form of suggestion to be used. Suggestion was recommended to address the habitual, involuntary hand wringing and lack of normal development:

...as the body sinks to sleep - the talk, the quieting effect, the improvements through the psychopathic effect that may be created by suggestion as the body goes to sleep. Something as this, though it may be altered according to that one giving same. Do not make same as rote, or as just something to be said, but with that intense desire to be a channel of aid and help TO the individual:
AS YOU (calling the child by ITS OWN name, that it responds to even by any FORM of suggestion) AS YOU SINK INTO A QUIET RESTFUL SLEEP, THE ORGANS OF THE BODY WILL SO FUNCTION THAT THE VERY BEST WILL BE BUILDED IN THE PHYSICAL AND MENTAL BEING, GIVING THAT RESPONSE THAT WILL BE A NORMAL ACTIVITY FOR THE ORGANS OF THE SENSORY SYSTEM. (2253-2)

(Q) Is there anything we can do to get her to stop wringing her hands?
(A) Only applying those things that will alter the present nervous reactions in the system will change same. THIS body, would be well for the suggestions to be made under the influence of hypnosis, or auto-suggestion to the body as it sleeps. This must be made by someone in sympathy with the activities of the body, and THIS would relieve such stress on the general system. (2253-3)

Although we have no long-term documentation in this case, a letter from Mrs. Pope of the Rosehill School (where the child was staying) noted, "I think she has improved noticeably and more so since she has had the battery although it has been used such a short time."


To see any quick improvement in cases of autism is note worthy, I think.


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LostInEmulation
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16 Mar 2009, 10:46 pm

This improvement can be as much wishful thinking or eventually seeing improvement because you are spending time with the autistic child or just be coincidental since the progress would have happened anyways or the well-known placebo effect as anything else.


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17 Mar 2009, 12:07 am

Okay...What do you make of this case?

Quote:
Four readings were given for a nineteen year old male [2014] who had been "abnormal about eleven years" and who was exhibiting repetitious, involuntary movements and antisocial behaviors:

(Q) What is the reason for, and what can be done for the habit reaction he has; such as the spitting, drawing of the mouth down, and waving of the fingers before his nose and mouth?
(A) These, as indicated, are reflexes through the sensory nerve system; lack of coordination between impulses and the guided or directed forces in the mental reactions of same.
Keep up the applications indicated for corrections, making the suggestions - and not attempting to control by violent means! (2014-3)

(Q) Would you advise scolding or hitting him, when he is so uncontrollable? or what method would you advise?
(A) Patience, kindness, gentleness, ever; not in that of scolding or tormenting at all. But in cajoling, and in kindness and in patience, these are the manners.
Remember, these conditions are for purposes. While they become very trying to the individuals who attempt to administer to the needs of the body, know that these are purposeful in thine own experience also.
(Q) Is this stubborn, fresh and disobedient attitude due to his ailment?
(A) Due to the ailment; else there would be other measures indicated. And in the building up of the body, there must be the response to kindness and gentleness and love, - more than to force, power, might, hate or scolding. (2014-2)

Again, this series of readings described nervous system incoordination involving the sensory nervous system. Pressures along the spine and in the abdominal nerve plexus associated with the digestive system were noted. Abdominal castor oil packs and spinal manipulations were suggested to relieve the pressures and coordinate the nervous systems. The Radial Appliance was also recommended to assist with the coordination. A mild laxative tea was prescribed to improve eliminations through the colon as chronic constipation was a problem.

For the behavioral problems and general pathological conditions, suggestive therapeutics was recommended:

(Q) What type of suggestion would you recommend?
(A) As just indicated, the type that is to be given continually; of the creative forces or God, - love manifesting through the activities of the body. These as helpful forces will bring the bettered conditions for this body. (2014-3)

The minimal follow-up correspondence does not indicate whether the recommendations were applied consistently or the eventual outcome in this case.

A series of twelve readings were given for a young girl (1179) who was seven years old when she received her first reading. Her readings and follow up correspondence suggest possible mild autism. Her readings described a "supersenstive" system with psychic or imaginative tendencies:

These conditions are rather of the unusual nature; or the body physically and mentally is supersensitive and the psychic forces are developing much faster than the bodily functionings. Or the body functionings are of such a nature that the sensitiveness of same precludes some activities through the nominal physical developments. (1179-1)

There are periods when there are unusual activities in the psychic forces of the body. The imaginative reactions to the sensory and the external forces in the experience of the body at times find physical expression in moods. (1179-7)

The child was somewhat withdrawn and difficult. Her mother's comment immediately following 1179-1: "Now I know better how to cope with this child, who reacts so differently from my other children - she is so unusual in so many ways."

The mother's difficulty in dealing with the child's antisocial behaviors was noted:

DO NOT make it an issue with the body! Advise with, but do not rave at nor scold nor make the entity conscious of same by constant nagging, or insistency! And this will be better, it will be found, in ALL the ways of IMPRESSING the body in ANY manner for any activity.
As has been indicated, the body is supersensitive, and is made aware of self's shortcomings or self's virtues by a continual impressing on same. Listen to the entity's arguments, always. Never tell her to shut up or stop, but hear it out! Then, parallel same by counsel as respecting what MIGHT be better if paralleled in THAT direction. (1179-6)

Social withdrawal and interpersonal deficits were cited in the correspondence. The child also apparently had some difficulty with reading.

Edgar Cayce described problems with the digestive system which were contributing to the difficult psychosocial development of this child. Various digestive aids and nutritional supplements were recommended, including Ventriculin, a dietary supplement made from the gastric tissue of hogs.

As with the other cases cited above, the Radial Active appliance was suggested to assist with nervous system coordination. Spinal manipulations were recommended. A basic diet, focusing on body building foods, was emphasized. In one reading, when asked about substituting other grains for wheat, Edgar Cayce responded:

(Q) Should the body discontinue the use of wheat products, substituting RYE BREAK, WHITE RICE, OATMEAL CEREAL, BUCKWHEAT AND CORNMEAL PANCAKES?
(A) It would be well to discontinue the greater portion of the wheat products, if these others are used - and they are all very well to be used. (1179-5)

Although suggestive therapeutics was not directly mentioned, the readings did insist on the importance of providing spiritual guidance to the child through Bible stories.

According to correspondence from her mother, Ms. 1179 became a school teacher at age twenty-two and married thirteen years later.

Although the above cases vary greatly with regard to symptoms and severity, some common themes are worth noting. In all these cases Edgar Cayce focused on nervous system incoordination involving the sensory nervous system. All these individuals were described as over sensitive (even "super-sensitive"). Nerve pressures were cited as causative factors. Spinal manipulation was consistently recommended, as was the use of the Radial Appliance to assist with balancing and coordinating the system.

Problems with the digestive system and intestinal tract was significant in two of these cases (1179 and 2014). Therapies such as abdominal castor oil packs, diet, and dietary supplements were suggested.

The mental and spiritual aspects of healing were prominent in all three cases. Suggestive therapeutics was usually recommended. The spiritual focus of the family and caregivers was strongly emphasized.

Thus a blending of treatments into a well integrated treatment plan was often recommended by Edgar Cayce for the treatment of autism. Here is a summary of some of the most common treatment recommendations.

TREATMENT RECOMMENDATIONS

Conceptually, the Cayce approach to autism focuses on assisting the body in healing itself by the application of a variety of therapies intended to address the underlying causes of the condition. The mental and spiritual aspects of healing are strongly emphasized.

Here are some general therapeutic recommendations intended to address the underlying causes of autism:

1. MANUAL THERAPY (SPINAL MANIPULATION): Cayce often recommended spinal manipulations to correct specific problems which may be a primary cause of autism. It is difficult to obtain the osteopathic adjustments specified by Cayce. However, a chiropractor may be of help. The frequency of the adjustments will depend on the recommendations of the individual chiropractor or osteopath. The use of an electric vibrator may also be helpful for individuals unable to obtain regular spinal adjustments.
2. ELECTROTHERAPY: Regular use of the Radial Appliance to coordinate nerve functioning and circulation is recommended.
3. INTERNAL CLEANSING: Because autistic symptoms were sometimes linked to problems with the alimentary canal resulting in poor eliminations, hydrotherapy is recommended to improve eliminations through the colon. Hydrotherapy includes drinking six to eight glasses of pure water daily and obtaining colonic irrigations to cleanse the bowel. Following the diet should also assist with internal cleansing. Hot castor oil packs applied over the abdomen are recommended to improve circulation (especially lymphatic) and eliminations through the alimentary canal.
4. DIET: The Basic Cayce Diet is intended to improve assimilation and elimination. The diet focuses heavily on keeping a proper alkaline/acid balance while avoiding foods which produce toxicity and drain the system. Essentially, the diet consists mainly of fruits and vegetables while avoiding fried foods and refined carbohydrates ("junk food"). Certain food combinations are emphasized.
5. SUGGESTIVE THERAPEUTICS: The use positive suggestions during the presleep period and during therapy sessions (such as massage and the Radial Appliance) is recommended to awaken the inner healing response. The spiritual attunement of the caregiver is essential.
6. MEDICATION: The use of a mild natural sedative (such as Passion Flower fusion) may be helpful for excitable children. Laxatives and dietary supplements may be helpful, particularly for individuals with significant gastrointestinal symptoms. Although Ventriculin is no longer available, similar products such as Secretin (made from hog gastric tissue and available only by physician's prescription) have proven helpful for some persons suffering from autism.


Back to case 1179:
In follow up correspondences, the mother expressed traits characteristic of autism in her daughter, however she did improve and...
According to correspondence from her mother, Ms. 1179 became a school
teacher at age twenty-two and married thirteen years later.


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LostInEmulation
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17 Mar 2009, 9:04 am

Okay, this desert of text is hard to parse for me... he sure offered some good advices here: for the mother to treat the child well and with love. I do however not think that this is divinely inspired. Seeing that children grow up better without being beaten is not that much of a revolutionary discovery.


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17 Mar 2009, 10:21 am

Where is the documentation that shows that Mr. Cayce's recommendations were actually applied? Mere suggestions do not affect a cure, and if there is no proof that the recommendations were actually carried out exactly as Mr. Cayce stated, then there is no reason to believe that any "cure" was accomplished by way of Mr. Cayce at all - that is, if the patients were really sick in the first place.

Every hear of "Munchausen By Proxy"?

Besides, even if following the recommended regimin led to an effective "cure," that in no way proves that the information came via psychic channels, as everything Mr. Cayce allegedly stated was already well-known within the ranks of osteopathic practitioners. Mr. Cayce could just as well have read the same recommendadtions from one of his books, faked his trademark trance, and then simply quoted the text from memory.

:: No proof of "psi" or psychic ability.

Edgar Cayce was either a delusional fool or a deliberate fraud, as there is no such thing as "psi" or psychic ability.


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17 Mar 2009, 7:12 pm

Magnus wrote:
Here is a study that shows the brain waves of a psychic conducting psi tasks.
Quote:
ABSTRACT
Electroencephalograph (EEG) and Single-Photon Emission Computerized Tomography (SPECT) data were collected from Sean Harribance, a well documented psychic who has previously participated in laboratory research, while he was engaged in psi tasks. This data was independently collected from two different laboratories during 1997.

From the same source:
Quote:
Data is not available at this time to demonstrate that psi actually occurred during the psi task conditions while QEEG and SPECT data were collected.



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17 Mar 2009, 7:20 pm

What I find interesting is how Edgar Cayce spoke of different causes for autism. It's far too common for experts to want to pigeon hole the cause. I think it's human nature to want to know the ultimate truth and keep it simple so that it is universal. However, this is just not how things are in reality. There is no black and white.

There are many things which I don't accept that Edgar Cayce taught. For example, he said the Atlanteans used amphipians for aircraft. That just makes me laugh. However, I don't know. I can't dissprove it. But, from how I view the world that just seems absurd.

He also thought reicarnation was absurd in his waking state. In his trance state, he cited that karma was a law. He was a traditional Christian so it was something he rejected at first. He struggled with this and in many subsequent readings, more reincarnation ideas emerged. He finally accepted this and assimilated this philosophy into his life. He never wanted to be proclaimed as a prophet though and I think none of us should think of him in that way. Very often, he revealed in his trance states how imperfect he was and those around him as well. We should take note of this remember not to expect anyone to ever be omnicient. But, we also shouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water.

I'm not going to believe what doesn't make sense to me and neither should you. It would probably beneifit all of us to experiment though. If something rings true to you then there is probably truth in it for you at least. Cayce did say that we were all souls and are here to learn. That may upset Atheists. Maybe they should just overlook the religious tones of his readings and focus on what may appear to help that individual. I am also someone who followed his advice and found that it worked. I think it is worthwhile to investigate all avenues that could lead to one's personal development.

Yes fnord, I admit that I don't know.


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17 Mar 2009, 8:02 pm

Magnus wrote:
fnord wrote:
Quote:
3. He claimed to be able to heal people with his alleged psychic abilities, when there is no substantiated evidence to support his claims.

He never claimed anything of the sort. The people who were cured (some after being told by doctors that their disease was fatal) were the ones who reported that he helped them.
Yet, after the 10 years of research that fnord claimed to have done has somehow managed to forget these facts. I think you are the liar fnord. I don't believe you even read the actual archives. It's so typical of a cherry picking skeptic to believe what he wants and sees only what he wants to see. Ignore the evidence if it doesn't go along with your world view? Typical...

When he was twenty-four he began offering spiritual cures. This is a recorded fact in the archives of A.C.E. and other resources. Also, the majority of Edgar Cayce's readings deal with the treatment of illness. Yet in all of the transcripts compiled over the years (some 14,000 at his death, and over 16,000 more "found" transcripts since then), the only evidence for Cayce's psychic doctoring is useless for testing his psychic powers.

My whole point has been that Edgar Cayce was either a deluded fool or a deliberate fraud, as there is no such thing as "psychic" ability. Whether or not his prescriptions for treatment meant that he or someone else affected a "cure" is irrelevant in light of the fact of his fraudulent claims as to how he obtained them.

If you can't support your claims of Edgar Cayce's "psychic" abilities, then just say so. Please don't attack my integrity ("Ad Hominem" anyone?) just to divert attention away (is that a "Red Herring" I smell?) from your insupportable claims.

The only evidence for Cayce's psychic talents are anecdotes - narrative accounts of alleged events, without substantive material proof to back them up. Many of Cayce's supporters seem to think that if enough of these baseless anecdotes are collected in one place, that Mr. Cayce's "psychic" healing abilities are thereby firmly established by shear volume alone! The archives, by themselves, never provide a clue as to how to distinguish cures by medical science alone from those caused by "psychic" healing. There is no way to prove Edgar Cayce was in any way instrumental for any cure, especially from the purely anecdotal "evidence" found in the archives. Unfortunately, that's the only "evidence" that you and other believers in Mr. Cayce have available. It's not that it just isn't enough, it isn't even good enough.

But I'm open to verifiable evidence. If you can provide proof of the occurrance any of these events, all of which were predicted by Edgar Cayce, and all of which were predicted to occur after his death (to save him embarrassment, perhaps?) then I'll believe:
    1. Mr. Cayce predicted that China would be fully converted to Christianity by 1968.

    2. In 1934 Mr. Cayce declared that Poseidia - which he said was a portion of Atlantis - would be the first part of that fabled continent to rise again from the Atlantic. “Expect it in 1968 or 1969,” he told his followers.

    3. A flipping of the Earth's magnetic poles and the destruction of California by falling into the ocean, both of which should have occurred by 1998, were predicted by Mr. Cayce.

    4. Mr. Cayce also predicted that by late 2001 a great chamber beneath the Sphinx, by the Great Pyramid of Giza, would be opened. Inside the chamber should be a magical library containing the distilled knowledge of the lost Atlanteans.
Go ahead ... make excuses ... I'll wait ...


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17 Mar 2009, 8:18 pm

Please wait while I do the research. I already have some thoughts but I don't want to half ass it.
I've gotten over my Cayce obsession years ago so...let's try to keep this simple and investigate one thing at a time. I feel bombarded. I'm not an A.R.E. spokesperson you know.

Pick something or I will. California sinking? That comes to mind first...


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17 Mar 2009, 11:31 pm

Hrm, I'll remain neutral here saying that not everything we see or experience can be rationnaly explained. It can be most of the time, but in the case it does not, i'm still open to the possibilities. Can anyone say they know 100% of the time what goes on in this world? =/ I frankly doubt it. Remaining critical while leaving a window of opportunities is probably the best way (according to me anyways) to understand what surrounds us.



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18 Mar 2009, 10:15 am

Magnus wrote:
... Pick something or I will. California sinking? That comes to mind first...

All or nothing. This isn't "Pick the easiest one to make up excuses for," it's "Explain why all four of Mr. Cayce's predictions failed to come true."

phil777 wrote:
... Remaining critical while leaving a window of opportunities is probably the best way (according to me anyways) to understand what surrounds us.

I'm open to any demonstration of psychic ability, magical powers, or divine intervention. But for your information, I'll be 52 years old in a couple of weeks, and in all my life, I've experienced not even one demonstration that couldn't also be explained by coincidence, natural events, or outright trickery.


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greenblue
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18 Mar 2009, 1:38 pm

Henriksson wrote:
I tend to side with the "bull" sentiment. It's based on emotions, more or less.

I tend to side with skepticism but not with the "bull" sentiment, which that would seem to be based on emotions, for what I've seen, and I don't want to side with "intolerance", though the term may not be correct here, but that's the idea.

Fnord wrote:
Lack of evidence invalidates any positive claim.

[fallacy]Yes, such as making claims about how religionists are and what religions are about (especially based on personal experiences [unpleasent experiences], which within empiricism, are irrelevant and unreliable), and also the correct use of the word delusion, within honest scientific, empirical, rational and logical grounds, yes, lack of real evidence of all of these, according to an empiric-reductionist perspective would, or better said, should, make them totally invalid.[/;)]


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Last edited by greenblue on 18 Mar 2009, 1:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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18 Mar 2009, 1:44 pm

As for the California earthquakes, he did say that San Francisco would suffer a great earthquake in 1955, if the people in that area were not spiritually advanced enough. San Francisco is probably one of the most progressive cities in the world. Back when he gave the reading, that city was not as extraordinary as it is today, so that was an interesting foresight.

It's never all or nothing. Newton, Einstein, Da Vinci, etc. have all made mistakes. It wouldn't be wise to dismiss everything they said because of an occasional error. Psychic ability is just like any other natural ability that is subject to error. The healings are what I find most interesting.


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18 Mar 2009, 2:58 pm

Magnus wrote:
As for the California earthquakes, he did say that San Francisco would suffer a great earthquake in 1955, if the people in that area were not spiritually advanced enough. San Francisco is probably one of the most progressive cities in the world. Back when he gave the reading, that city was not as extraordinary as it is today, so that was an interesting foresight.

Irrelevant. You have not explained why Mr. Cayce's prediction (A flipping of the Earth's magnetic poles and the destruction of California by falling into the ocean, both of which should have occurred by 1998) was wrong. The magnetic poles have not flipped, and California is still here.

Magnus wrote:
It's never all or nothing. Newton, Einstein, Da Vinci, etc. have all made mistakes. It wouldn't be wise to dismiss everything they said because of an occasional error. Psychic ability is just like any other natural ability that is subject to error. The healings are what I find most interesting.

Scientists are always actively seek to correct errors in science, while those who follow "magic, miracles, and psychic phenomena" (Pseudo-Science) are always actively making excuses for their mistakes. These are the most obvious characteristics that distinguish the two practices:
    Science = Correction and Refinement.

    Pseudo-Science = Excuses and Obscuration.
You can always tell when someone doesn't have any idea what they are talking about when they start making excuses and try to obscure what really happened.


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The mere fact that science may not yet adequately explain an object, event, or experience does not mean the immediate explanation should automatically default to a conspiratorial, extraterrestrial, paranormal, or supernatural cause.