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Sand
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04 Apr 2009, 10:34 am

Haliphron wrote:
You're missing the point SamAckery :x . Genetic errors are 100% guaranteed if an organism lives sufficient long! If they dont come from ionizing radiation exposure they will be caused by oxidative damage! I used to think(as did many scientists) that its our genes that kill us but the fact of the matter is that entropy, a pervasive and ceaseless "force" of the universe, does not permit a highly ordered system to remain ordered eternally.


Life itself is anti-entropic. Whether it's radiation or chemical problems there are back-ups that can cover and correct errors. Provided there are sufficient backups life can be extended extensively. Admittedly forever is a long time and the universe itself as a totality is not immune to entropy so eternity is out of the question. I personally would settle for a couple of hundred thousand years - at this point, anyway.



Haliphron
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04 Apr 2009, 1:00 pm

Sand wrote:
Haliphron wrote:
You're missing the point SamAckery :x . Genetic errors are 100% guaranteed if an organism lives sufficient long! If they dont come from ionizing radiation exposure they will be caused by oxidative damage! I used to think(as did many scientists) that its our genes that kill us but the fact of the matter is that entropy, a pervasive and ceaseless "force" of the universe, does not permit a highly ordered system to remain ordered eternally.


Life itself is anti-entropic. Whether it's radiation or chemical problems there are back-ups that can cover and correct errors. Provided there are sufficient backups life can be extended extensively. Admittedly forever is a long time and the universe itself as a totality is not immune to entropy so eternity is out of the question. I personally would settle for a couple of hundred thousand years - at this point, anyway.


Evidence, please?

BTW, FYI, I actually studies a bit of biochemistry AND classical thermodynamics as an undergrad. DNA isnt as stable a molecule as you seem to think it is! It CAN be damaged beyond repair by means of prolonged oxidation by free radicals. DNA replicates to ensure its survival because if it didnt it would be degraded beyond usefulness by superoxide radicals. If DNA were as stable as say, teflon, then there would be no need for cells to divide.



Sand
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04 Apr 2009, 1:33 pm

Haliphron wrote:
Sand wrote:
Haliphron wrote:
You're missing the point SamAckery :x . Genetic errors are 100% guaranteed if an organism lives sufficient long! If they dont come from ionizing radiation exposure they will be caused by oxidative damage! I used to think(as did many scientists) that its our genes that kill us but the fact of the matter is that entropy, a pervasive and ceaseless "force" of the universe, does not permit a highly ordered system to remain ordered eternally.


Life itself is anti-entropic. Whether it's radiation or chemical problems there are back-ups that can cover and correct errors. Provided there are sufficient backups life can be extended extensively. Admittedly forever is a long time and the universe itself as a totality is not immune to entropy so eternity is out of the question. I personally would settle for a couple of hundred thousand years - at this point, anyway.


Evidence, please?

BTW, FYI, I actually studies a bit of biochemistry AND classical thermodynamics as an undergrad. DNA isnt as stable a molecule as you seem to think it is! It CAN be damaged beyond repair by means of prolonged oxidation by free radicals. DNA replicates to ensure its survival because if it didnt it would be degraded beyond usefulness by superoxide radicals. If DNA were as stable as say, teflon, then there would be no need for cells to divide.


See http://www.nih.gov/sigs/dna-rep/whatis.html



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04 Apr 2009, 3:21 pm

Haliphron wrote:
You're missing the point SamAckery :x . Genetic errors are 100% guaranteed if an organism lives sufficient long! If they dont come from ionizing radiation exposure they will be caused by oxidative damage! I used to think(as did many scientists) that its our genes that kill us but the fact of the matter is that entropy, a pervasive and ceaseless "force" of the universe, does not permit a highly ordered system to remain ordered eternally.


Well yes of course oxygen radicals cause issues, but genetic errors can also be guaranteed because of the fact that radiation is all around us, it is one of my most favourite topics and I love alpha emitters, such as Americium-241 and Polonium-210, but sadly that isn't the point, the point is that you can not necissarly guarantee ANYTHING, the entire unvirsal continuum is vastly unknown, and as much as we know about DNA (And yes I realise its unstable! Anything that important is bound to have errors!)
Ah forget it....I lost my train of thought, damn you fermions you distacted me!! !


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ruveyn
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04 Apr 2009, 3:40 pm

My main question to Christians: How can you adhere to such a silly religion?

ruveyn



Haliphron
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04 Apr 2009, 4:02 pm

Sand wrote:
Haliphron wrote:
Sand wrote:
Haliphron wrote:
You're missing the point SamAckery :x . Genetic errors are 100% guaranteed if an organism lives sufficient long! If they dont come from ionizing radiation exposure they will be caused by oxidative damage! I used to think(as did many scientists) that its our genes that kill us but the fact of the matter is that entropy, a pervasive and ceaseless "force" of the universe, does not permit a highly ordered system to remain ordered eternally.


Life itself is anti-entropic. Whether it's radiation or chemical problems there are back-ups that can cover and correct errors. Provided there are sufficient backups life can be extended extensively. Admittedly forever is a long time and the universe itself as a totality is not immune to entropy so eternity is out of the question. I personally would settle for a couple of hundred thousand years - at this point, anyway.


Evidence, please?

BTW, FYI, I actually studies a bit of biochemistry AND classical thermodynamics as an undergrad. DNA isnt as stable a molecule as you seem to think it is! It CAN be damaged beyond repair by means of prolonged oxidation by free radicals. DNA replicates to ensure its survival because if it didnt it would be degraded beyond usefulness by superoxide radicals. If DNA were as stable as say, teflon, then there would be no need for cells to divide.


See http://www.nih.gov/sigs/dna-rep/whatis.html


Dont forget that the enzymes that catalyze DNA repair are also encoded on DNA strands which themselves are vulnerable to oxidative damage over time! So as our cells age, eventually the DNA regions that containt the genes for DNA repair enzymes get damaged and these enzymes are not transcibed properly which leads to breakdowns in DNA repair.DNA repair mechanisms in prokaryotic cells are FAR more primitive than in Eurkaryotes, which is the REASON why baterial cells divide and why reproduction even exists in the first place: It is the most biologically and chemically effective means of resisting entropy! You are also not taking into account the role of mitochondrial DNA which has very inefficient DNA repair mechaninsms which means that eukaryotic cells which either cease to divide or lose the ability to divide(like neurons, whose centrioles eventually degenerate and thus they can no longer reproduce). Alpha particles and gamma rays certain can and do cause irreversible damage to DNA SamAckery but the isotopes you mentioned are NOT naturally occuring and Polonium-210 has a half-life of less than 1 year.



Last edited by Haliphron on 04 Apr 2009, 4:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

SamAckary
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04 Apr 2009, 4:12 pm

What? To me it doesn't matter if they were naturally occuring, I drifted from conversation into that of radiative materials, and anyway, do you really think that if you ingest Polonium-210 that you would survive for more than a year? doubtful, the half life is unimportant in such a case, alpha particles cause far to great amounts of ionisation compared to say gamma, and in the ONLY case in which it is harmful, either ingested or similar, you would die farely quickly, no doubt about it


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04 Apr 2009, 4:16 pm

SamAckary wrote:
What? To me it doesn't matter if they were naturally occuring, I drifted from conversation into that of radiative materials, and anyway, do you really think that if you ingest Polonium-210 that you would survive for more than a year? doubtful, the half life is unimportant in such a case, alpha particles cause far to great amounts of ionisation compared to say gamma, and in the ONLY case in which it is harmful, either ingested or similar, you would die farely quickly, no doubt about it


Of course not! But you were trying to change the subject and if you wanna talk about radiobiology why dont you start a new thread about it. :wink:



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04 Apr 2009, 4:21 pm

I don't like new threads, I get distracted in existing ones my friend :P
And besides, If I make a new thread a better aspie is bound to outsmart my lacking knowledge of physical mechanics, as my maths is not as up to scratch as is my knowledge of less mathematical portions of physics :lol:
So sorry for being distracted lol :wink:


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Sand
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04 Apr 2009, 9:29 pm

The general argument is that accidents happen and no structure, no matter how elaborate, is totally immune to accident and eventual destruction. I will grant that, but no one can say with security how long a secure system will endure. Some are better than others and I maintain that structural integrity can be made much more endurable than now exists.



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04 Apr 2009, 9:58 pm

Sand wrote:
The general argument is that accidents happen and no structure, no matter how elaborate, is totally immune to accident and eventual destruction. I will grant that, but no one can say with security how long a secure system will endure. Some are better than others and I maintain that structural integrity can be made much more endurable than now exists.


Prolonged life most certainly IS possible. But what is not possible is eternal life and there is a big difference.



Sand
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05 Apr 2009, 12:38 am

Shadowgirl wrote:
Henriksson wrote:
Haliphron wrote:
Shadowgirl wrote:
I believe that homosexuality (The act of it) was brought on by Satan.


:lmao:

That's DUMB Shadowgirl. Not your religion, but your belief about homosexuality. I guess Gods just not powerful enough to put a stop to it even though he allegedly doesnt approve of it :roll: . You blame homosexuality on Satan because homosexuality doesnt lead to procreation. That is the whole idea behind the bible's condemnation of it! The fact that homosexuality DOES EXIST among various species of mammals and birds[which were created by GOD, remember?]completely blows that belief out of the water. :wink:

Rule number one when speaking to fundies: Don't call their religion dumb, you'll not be able to get positive responses.

BTW, Shadowgirl, aren't you an Asexual? Isn't that pretty sinful according to the Bible?


Yes I am asexual and its not sinful. Its better to be asexual then impure and have sex before marriage and or sodomy.

I read something last night in 1 Corinthians about it.

1 Corinthians 7 1-7

1Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to marry.[a] 2But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband. 3The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. 5Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 6I say this as a concession, not as a command. 7I wish that all men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.

8Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. 9But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

Sexual Immorality
12"Everything is permissible for me"—but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"—but I will not be mastered by anything. 13"Food for the stomach and the stomach for food"—but God will destroy them both. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also. 15Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! 16Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh."[b] 17But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit.

1 Corinthians 6 18-20
18Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. 19Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.


I know it's asking a lot but it would be an adventurous experiment for you to think for yourself and evaluate the world from personal experience and basic mental capabilities rather than refer to ancient authorities that derived their attitudes out of a rather primitive culture.



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05 Apr 2009, 12:11 pm

Keith wrote:
God would be neither man, male nor female. There would be no need. Why would a God have the need for a gender and sexuality?


How would he get Mary pregnant? :P
Momoms believe that god had actual sex with Mary, so I guess at least they believe god is male.

Anyway if there is a god, I highly doubt that we appear in god's image, the people who made up the bible probably wrote that becasue they lacked imagination :?


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Sand
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05 Apr 2009, 12:20 pm

Chibi_Neko wrote:
Keith wrote:
God would be neither man, male nor female. There would be no need. Why would a God have the need for a gender and sexuality?


How would he get Mary pregnant? :P
Momoms believe that god had actual sex with Mary, so I guess at least they believe god is male.

Anyway if there is a god, I highly doubt that we appear in god's image, the people who made up the bible probably wrote that becasue they lacked imagination :?


I doubt religious people take the creation of Jesus to have taken place in the normal sexual manner. All species that clone naturally without a male can only give birth to a female since the required male chromosome is missing so religion does not cling to normal scientific necessities. The whole concept of God is rife with magic (which they label miracles) and anything is possible with magic. Which is basically why science and religion conflict since sciene is based on actual physics. Religion is not.



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05 Apr 2009, 12:51 pm

ruveyn wrote:
My main question to Christians: How can you adhere to such a silly religion?


Because "God set off the Big Bang" is simpler to understand than "two 11-dimensial branes collided, causing a vacuum fluctuation that resulted in the creation of a 4-dimensional universe"?



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05 Apr 2009, 1:10 pm

:lol: Nice one.